Talk to me about boats

[Eddy77]

That doesn’t seem too bad?

A bit like a 60k car would cost you 6k a year in insurance, tax, maintenance, repairs, depreciation etc.

Well that was "kind of" my reasoning around £5-7k a year being manageable.

In my case, man maths it at play....I am offsetting the annual costs of a boat against our annual spend on family holidays which currently runs at around £6k a year. I'm not going to get into an argument over how much we spend on holidays, but that's the reality in our household. That covers a big summer holiday ( 2 weeks) and a week in October Half Term. Prices are high due to school-aged children jacking prices up in peak season.

The boat would replace these foreign holidays...so in a sense, I swap one expense for another. Undoubtedly on top of the running costs there would also be depreciation of the boat (which is actually quite gentle on an older boat) and fuel (which is a big one). So overall it's going to cost more...but not *that* much more than my current spend on holidays. Well - that was my thinking anyway.

As you can already see from this thread there are plenty of people who suggest it's going to bankrupt me...but then there are others who suggest it might not be so bad. And this is the issue with trying to get a handle on boating costs. Plenty of people will joke that you might as well burn £50 notes ten at a time, but I wonder how many of them have actually owned a boat and how many of them are referring to their mate's mate who they drink with at the local pub??? I just can't figure out what the reality really is. My gut feel is that the reality is annual costs in the range £5k - £10k. Some years will be less than others. But I think that's the order of magnitude.

Don't get me wrong - I know this is a lot of cash - but offset against not spending £6k a year on holidays abroad, perhaps not so horrifying. The key - as already mentioned - is getting lots of use out of it. If it provides - say - 6 weeks of holidays for my family each year, the cost is not so crazy. If it only gets used for the odd weekend and I still end up booking holidays abroad - then it becomes a large additional expense!

Anyway, we could go on forever. As I move along, I'll keep the thread updated!

PS - I live within 45 minutes of Southampton, so access would be relatively easy.

 

[clk320x]

Well that was "kind of" my reasoning around £5-7k a year being manageable.

In my case, man maths it at play....I am offsetting the annual costs of a boat against our annual spend on family holidays which currently runs at around £6k a year. I'm not going to get into an argument over how much we spend on holidays, but that's the reality in our household. That covers a big summer holiday ( 2 weeks) and a week in October Half Term. Prices are high due to school-aged children jacking prices up in peak season.

The boat would replace these foreign holidays...so in a sense, I swap one expense for another. Undoubtedly on top of the running costs there would also be depreciation of the boat (which is actually quite gentle on an older boat) and fuel (which is a big one). So overall it's going to cost more...but not *that* much more than my current spend on holidays. Well - that was my thinking anyway.

As you can already see from this thread there are plenty of people who suggest it's going to bankrupt me...but then there are others who suggest it might not be so bad. And this is the issue with trying to get a handle on boating costs. Plenty of people will joke that you might as well burn £50 notes ten at a time, but I wonder how many of them have actually owned a boat and how many of them are referring to their mate's mate who they drink with at the local pub??? I just can't figure out what the reality really is. My gut feel is that the reality is annual costs in the range £5k - £10k. Some years will be less than others. But I think that's the order of magnitude.

Don't get me wrong - I know this is a lot of cash - but offset against not spending £6k a year on holidays abroad, perhaps not so horrifying. The key - as already mentioned - is getting lots of use out of it. If it provides - say - 6 weeks of holidays for my family each year, the cost is not so crazy. If it only gets used for the odd weekend and I still end up booking holidays abroad - then it becomes a large additional expense!

Anyway, we could go on forever. As I move along, I'll keep the thread updated!

PS - I live within 45 minutes of Southampton, so access would be relatively easy.

Lifes too short - if you can afford it then why not! best of luck with it.

 

[Darrell]

Well that was "kind of" my reasoning around £5-7k a year being manageable.

In my case, man maths it at play....I am offsetting the annual costs of a boat against our annual spend on family holidays which currently runs at around £6k a year. I'm not going to get into an argument over how much we spend on holidays, but that's the reality in our household. That covers a big summer holiday ( 2 weeks) and a week in October Half Term. Prices are high due to school-aged children jacking prices up in peak season.

The boat would replace these foreign holidays...so in a sense, I swap one expense for another. Undoubtedly on top of the running costs there would also be depreciation of the boat (which is actually quite gentle on an older boat) and fuel (which is a big one). So overall it's going to cost more...but not *that* much more than my current spend on holidays. Well - that was my thinking anyway.

As you can already see from this thread there are plenty of people who suggest it's going to bankrupt me...but then there are others who suggest it might not be so bad. And this is the issue with trying to get a handle on boating costs. Plenty of people will joke that you might as well burn £50 notes ten at a time, but I wonder how many of them have actually owned a boat and how many of them are referring to their mate's mate who they drink with at the local pub??? I just can't figure out what the reality really is. My gut feel is that the reality is annual costs in the range £5k - £10k. Some years will be less than others. But I think that's the order of magnitude.

Don't get me wrong - I know this is a lot of cash - but offset against not spending £6k a year on holidays abroad, perhaps not so horrifying. The key - as already mentioned - is getting lots of use out of it. If it provides - say - 6 weeks of holidays for my family each year, the cost is not so crazy. If it only gets used for the odd weekend and I still end up booking holidays abroad - then it becomes a large additional expense!

Anyway, we could go on forever. As I move along, I'll keep the thread updated!

PS - I live within 45 minutes of Southampton, so access would be relatively easy.

You mention that it will replace your 2 foreign holidays a year so where do you intend to go in your boat??

 

[Smart320]

You are assuming your family will enjoy boating ! Fatal mistake.

 

[Smart320]

Ask me how I know . I had an offshore skippers licence for sailing yachts ( with commercial endorsement ) , took the cheaper route and belonged to a sailing syndicate with 4 boats of varying sizes and types . After the first few days out and overnights , my wife and 4 children dropped out one by one! Ended up sailing alone with other syndicate members.

 

[219]

Well that was "kind of" my reasoning around £5-7k a year being manageable.

In my case, man maths it at play....I am offsetting the annual costs of a boat against our annual spend on family holidays which currently runs at around £6k a year. I'm not going to get into an argument over how much we spend on holidays, but that's the reality in our household. That covers a big summer holiday ( 2 weeks) and a week in October Half Term. Prices are high due to school-aged children jacking prices up in peak season.

The boat would replace these foreign holidays...so in a sense, I swap one expense for another. Undoubtedly on top of the running costs there would also be depreciation of the boat (which is actually quite gentle on an older boat) and fuel (which is a big one). So overall it's going to cost more...but not *that* much more than my current spend on holidays. Well - that was my thinking anyway.

As you can already see from this thread there are plenty of people who suggest it's going to bankrupt me...but then there are others who suggest it might not be so bad. And this is the issue with trying to get a handle on boating costs. Plenty of people will joke that you might as well burn £50 notes ten at a time, but I wonder how many of them have actually owned a boat and how many of them are referring to their mate's mate who they drink with at the local pub??? I just can't figure out what the reality really is. My gut feel is that the reality is annual costs in the range £5k - £10k. Some years will be less than others. But I think that's the order of magnitude.

Don't get me wrong - I know this is a lot of cash - but offset against not spending £6k a year on holidays abroad, perhaps not so horrifying. The key - as already mentioned - is getting lots of use out of it. If it provides - say - 6 weeks of holidays for my family each year, the cost is not so crazy. If it only gets used for the odd weekend and I still end up booking holidays abroad - then it becomes a large additional expense!

Anyway, we could go on forever. As I move along, I'll keep the thread updated!

PS - I live within 45 minutes of Southampton, so access would be relatively easy.

From what you say , if you can find at least one other person to share these costs with you ( and there are plenty of weeks in the year for you to each get your six weeks pleasure out of the thing , maybe also for a third person also ; then you can reduce the costs considerably.

Perhaps even when the boat is not in use , you could rent it to vetted customers and cover some of the costs from that ?

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

The following was my thinking last time I got tempted, but it was based upon my own logic rather than any advice from someone who’s actually done it (and needs to think about cost!). Everyone else had an opinion, but no experience.

It’s probably easy enough to get an idea of maintenance costs from a boat workshop, and then add insurance and mooring costs to get a feel for the fixed costs.

For variable costs, which is probably the trickiest to forecast, factor in a budget for fuel and use the boat in line with the budget, and then put away say 25% of the value of the boat for that unexpected repair, and write it off up front as being spent. If you never need it then you can roll it into your next boat’s contingency reserve or have a bonus when you sell.

When I’ve looked into it I concluded that £50k seemed to be a sensible budget for a sport cruiser that I would be happy with, but that means the boat would be no spring chicken and would potentially need a bigger contingency reserve which I would have to be happy to actually spend.

The alternative would be to spend a lot more and get a younger boat, and hopefully need few repairs, and fewer expensive repairs. but I suspect “pricing” for routine maintenance is linked to the value of the boat, and the contingency reserve would need to be bigger and could still be needed, which led me back to thinking that £50k being the sweet spot, with £7.5k pa running fees, and £12.5k reserve.

As I say, none of that was based upon experience.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

For me, the biggest benefit of sharing a boat - or being part of a syndicate - would be sharing the risk rather than the cost.

Ultimately it all comes down to cost, but it’s the money I may need to spend but can’t easily forecast which would be the worrying part (ie the risk), rather than the predictable stuff (ie the cost) because that can be planned for and is largely known up-front.

 

[219]

For me, the biggest benefit of sharing a boat - or being part of a syndicate - would be sharing the risk rather than the cost.

Ultimately it all comes down to cost, but it’s the money I may need to spend but can’t easily forecast which would be the worrying part (ie the risk), rather than the predictable stuff (ie the cost) because that can be planned for and is largely known up-front.

Maybe a stupid question, but many say the only stupid question is the one you don’t ask .

Can you insure against these disastrous unexpected costs ?

 

[unimog]

Boat is an acronym..... break out another thousand.

You should most certainly try it, I came from commercial shipping and I am fully qualified Chief Engineer and maritime surveyor, so I have seen most of the pitfalls and problems to know its not for me. I like car depreciation better....

Operational costs are more realistically 8-15% (8% if one is an exceptionally experienced yachtsmen) per year of the NEW purchase price of the boat. A 10 year old Sunseeker won't cost you any less to run than a new one to run, and some boats have depreciation that is measurable in percent per month. Mooring lines and Fenders are consumables and depending on where you store the boat can last only a season (friction). Treatment for the water and fuel tanks, engine servicing, Insurance, local taxes, cruising permits (if you want to keep it in Spain, France or Italy say), annual haul out and bottom painting (antifouling - to appease your insurer) all start to add up. A 30ft boat will relieve you of at least £15-18k per year in operational costs for about 150 hours of running per year (that's at least 4-5 weeks of use). And GRP boats need painting topside depending on where its been lying every 7-10 years, that will cost you at least £20k.

Any boat you buy, get a proper survey before parting with any cash. Think of it like a house survey, but 10 times more thorough.

A good surveyor is the first person you call when you are buying a boat and the last person you want to see when you are trying to sell one.

I would avoid shared ownership schemes. It's a legal minefield, and unless the operational costs are collected equally and kept in escrow, you are asking for a world of financial headache and legal pain. I have seen these go terribly wrong an bankrupt very wealthy individuals. The tax implications require a specialist accountant by themselves.

As an example of 'unforseen expense', I have just organised a repair on a pourous GRP hull on a 30ft Novurania yacht tender boat which is 4 years old that is $18k to repair and repaint all in. Haul out and hardstanding for the duration of the repair this time of year is $2000 of that, and its relatively cheap. It would be double in October or April.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

Maybe a stupid question, but many say the only stupid question is the one you don’t ask .

Can you insure against these disastrous unexpected costs ?

A good question, and I’m not sure. If it’s like cars then perhaps on a newer boat, but less likely on an old one.

 

[unimog]

A good question, and I’m not sure. If it’s like cars then perhaps on a newer boat, but less likely on an old one.

There are two types of boat insurance, one mandatory and one optional. P&I (protection and indemnity) will be mandatory in most if not all marinas. It will be very expensive if you are inexperienced.

H&M ( hull and machinery) is optional, but again will be expensive if you are inexperienced and also depends on the age of the vessel. Deductibles are not like car insurance, it’s not unusual to have a £5k excess.

 

[Eddy77]

Boat is an acronym..... break out another thousand.

You should most certainly try it, I came from commercial shipping and I am fully qualified Chief Engineer and maritime surveyor, so I have seen most of the pitfalls and problems to know its not for me. I like car depreciation better....

Operational costs are more realistically 8-15% (8% if one is an exceptionally experienced yachtsmen) per year of the NEW purchase price of the boat. A 10 year old Sunseeker won't cost you any less to run than a new one to run, and some boats have depreciation that is measurable in percent per month. Mooring lines and Fenders are consumables and depending on where you store the boat can last only a season (friction). Treatment for the water and fuel tanks, engine servicing, Insurance, local taxes, cruising permits (if you want to keep it in Spain, France or Italy say), annual haul out and bottom painting (antifouling - to appease your insurer) all start to add up. A 30ft boat will relieve you of at least £15-18k per year in operational costs for about 150 hours of running per year (that's at least 4-5 weeks of use). And GRP boats need painting topside depending on where its been lying every 7-10 years, that will cost you at least £20k.

Any boat you buy, get a proper survey before parting with any cash. Think of it like a house survey, but 10 times more thorough.

A good surveyor is the first person you call when you are buying a boat and the last person you want to see when you are trying to sell one.

I would avoid shared ownership schemes. It's a legal minefield, and unless the operational costs are collected equally and kept in escrow, you are asking for a world of financial headache and legal pain. I have seen these go terribly wrong an bankrupt very wealthy individuals. The tax implications require a specialist accountant by themselves.

As an example of 'unforseen expense', I have just organised a repair on a pourous GRP hull on a 30ft Novurania yacht tender boat which is 4 years old that is $18k to repair and repaint all in. Haul out and hardstanding for the duration of the repair this time of year is $2000 of that, and its relatively cheap. It would be double in October or April.

That is probably the most useful advice / post so far. Thank you. I think that, based on that, ownership is going to remain a dream. I'm not giving up on the idea, but rental seems to be the way forward. I wouldn't be comfortable with the sort of outlay you describe. If it could be managed at the £5k-7k mark I'd be interested, but not much more. And that really seems to be the reality if you keep one of these for more than a year or two.

 

[unimog]

You have to view it as a longer term sort of deal, getting into a boat is easy but getting out is more difficult unless you have something semi custom/desirable but that will ultimately cost you more in upkeep.

Definitely do the yacht master offshore and maybe also the AEC course, and go and have some fun on a private charter group (there are few companies that do motor boats in similar rental model to Sunsail, which are all sailing/catamaran type vessels), you get the benefit of your own vessel for the family and you can pick a number of destinations world wide, BVI's and Antigua are bliss for finding remote beaches and coves and the family will certainly love it. With these charters you also have an experienced captain available to help you get to grips if you want, 4 week med charters are still cheaper than the equivalent hotel stay for up to 6 people.

It does get in your veins if you are that way inclined, I have worked for some life long boaters, before long you will be working 18 hour days building an empire to spend 10 weeks a year on something like this (yours for €55million if you fancy, 223ft, German Built, low hours, 10000nm range, painted 2017, just completed 10 year survey with brand new generators, ready to go world cruising for the next 5 years with only moderate operating expenses):
ç

 

[Will]

That is probably the most useful advice / post so far. Thank you. I think that, based on that, ownership is going to remain a dream. I'm not giving up on the idea, but rental seems to be the way forward. I wouldn't be comfortable with the sort of outlay you describe. If it could be managed at the £5k-7k mark I'd be interested, but not much more. And that really seems to be the reality if you keep one of these for more than a year or two.

Just wondered how you got on with this in the end ?

Have you rented any boats or had any more thoughts about purchase?

 

[Big Janner]

Hi all!

Does anyone on here have any knowledge or experience of owning a motor cruiser? I’m taking about a 30ft ish four berth motor / sports cruiser. Either with twin outboards or Volvo penta diesel inboard. Something like a Sealine S34 or perhaps a Jeanneau Merry Fisher. Or an older Princess.

I am trying to get a handle on the ongoing costs. In my mind I reckon that a cheap mooring, insurance and annual servicing stuff should weigh in around £5k-£7k per annum. Plus fuel which is of course usage dependent.

I’m new to all this, but here’s where I am at in the thought process:

I would want to do some proper training before jumping in to learn how to drive such a boat.

I know the fuel is hideously expensive.

I have ascertained that outboards are way cheaper to run and maintain than inboards but on a 30ft plus boat the majority are inboard. But what exactly is the differential. People bang on about shaft drive and got knows what else. I’m not sure I have got my head around it all.

I’d want a boat that could do inland and coastal. I think that’s a category B.....but what defines coastal use. Could I safely take a 30ft over to France, for example?

My research tells me that the cheap American brands like Bayliner are cheap for a reason. So am I better going for an older Jeanneau, Princess? Should I be concerned about buying an older boat (mid 90s for example)?

I don’t want to flood the forum with questions. I’m possibly going to be in a position to buy one in a couple of years time and trying to spend the time between now and then working out all the pros and cons. I’ve always fancied one but are they just a hideous money pit?

I’m looking at it as an alternative to havjng a holiday home / annual holiday abroad so in my mind the annual running costs offset quite a bit of what I would spend on two weeks at an all inclusive plus half term breaks etc.

Purchase budget would be around £40k - £50k if that helps at all. I’m no millionaire and I don’t want a millstone round my neck. Just trying to follow my dreams a bit and do it while the family can enjoy it.

Yep, smaller (22') motor cruisers both inboard and out board

Costs;
Insurance can be very reasonable
Mooring fees can be hidiously expensive, which is location dependant
e.g.
46' narrowboat on inland waterways; around £250/mth
22' cruiser on the Thames at Hambleden; around £460/mth
Servicing; do it yourself, otherwise it can, again, be hidiously expensive.
You will be charged from the moment they leave their location, until they get back to their home location, so, if your service agent of choice is 30 miles away . . . . . . . .

Fuel
Red diesel is now only allowed for heating
You have to use white for motoring.
Outboards are easy, as they can be removed and transported, or serviced in situ
They are also easy to steal . . . .don't ask how I know.

My preference is outboard.
Inboard can be a bastard to work on, depending on the installation, but, don't get nicked.
Look before you buy!!!!

Coastal is just that, coastal, you stay within sight of land
Inland waterways helmsmans ticket is a one day, £150, job, well worth it, I have mine
Coastal means navigation and radio training . . .so, an additional cost.

Yes, you could get to France on a 30 footer, not sure I'd try it though.

Bayliners are often referred to as binliners . . . . .

Whatever you buy, have it inspected before you buy.
It will have to have a regular (annual I think) inspection
Cost; size dependant, but, about £300.
An older Princess or Sunseeker would be good

When we had £40k to buy a boat, we bought a narrowboat . . . Bloody brilliant

Good luck with whatever you decide

 

[andyR43]

I own a 30ft motor cruiser, twin Volvo Penta 5.0V8 petrol engines on outdrives moored in Poole.
We bought the boat as we both liked the idea of spending lots of our spare time on the water.
Poole is a fabulous place to moor a boat as you have both the sea and the harbour with its islands to play around in.
We use the boat as often as we can with a typical "usable" season running from the beginning of March until the end of November.
The boat then comes out of the water for January and February for maintenance.
For a boat of this size you would be looking at an expenditure of approx £10k per year (based on our average costs not guess work)
That is £4500 mooring, £1500+ fuel, £2500+ servicing and maintenance and then boat lifting in/out, yard fees, updates, upgrades, Seastart membership, Shorepower, insurance, sundries etc. etc.
Overall though we are very happy with boat ownership as it's great fun for all the family and friends.

 

[BPD07]

We’ve owned two cruisers like you describe. The first was a Rinker 250 with a single marinised Chevy 5.7 v8. Sounded lovely, but was a bit small inside and tatty. We then got a Maxum 3200 SCR (32 foot) with twin Mercrusier 4.2 diesels. £100k of boat back in 2003. Both boats had alpha drives and the 32 footer had a bow thruster (very good get one). Mooring cost on a pontoon in Chichester marina were around £5.5k then (2003), insurance wasn’t too bad - I got my Powerboat 1 and 2, and radio licence. You needed Powerboat 2 to cruise in French costal waters. I seem to recall a fuel burn at 8/10 knots of around 50 litres an hour, on the plane and towing (ring/skis) she would burn 200 litres in an hour or so play. Annual lift and clean, re-gel if required was £800-£1,000. Fun hobby, nice people but you have to go often to make it work financially. My eldest boy hated being on the boat so we jacked it in and sold for about a £20k loss at the end of 2004.

We bought a static caravan in France instead.

Power boating has been likened to standing in a cold shower ripping up £50 notes, and “Marine” is store (sorry chandlery) shorthand for multiply by four.

 

[Petrol Pete]

By co incidence yesterday while looking for something on youtube I saw a thing on super yachts one of them had a million litre fuel tank Then the bloke was talking about internet connections at sea. Nine hundred thousand dollars a year , yup , $900000.00 and Elon Musks new sat system is not going to bring that price down any time soon.

It's a mad , mad world .

 

[andyR43]

I forgot to add that before we bought the boat I took the Powerboat level 2, VHF radio operator and Day Skipper courses run by the RYA.
Handy courses to have if you want to take to the water.

As for boat share I wouldn't bother, you'd be better off renting a boat.