Taste

[MOCAŠ]

In another thread....

They have so much money its just incomprehensible to the average joe.

Shame all that money can't buy them taste...

Taste is subjective and usually only considered by people that can't afford the object that they are critising. Once you have accumulated or inhereted a certain amount of money, worrying what other people think simply doesn't enter the equation, you buy what you want, whatever colour you want, however many you want.

Gosh, that's quite a sweeping statement. Agreed that taste is subjective to a degree, in that there is no universal manual defining what's good or bad (though some have made ill-advised attempts at producing one), but we part company on the notion that it has anything to do with one's wealth. It's more an instinctive sense of whether or not something fits within its surroundings and a desire to avoid conspicuous excess. Some have it, some don't, and those who don't tend not to care that they don't.

This isn't really the place to explore what is a complex and multi-dimensional subject, but I will say that at all points on the scale of personal wealth you will find people who seem to have suffered a taste bypass and care not a jot about how they are perceived by others. Equally, there are many immensely wealthy people who would never dream of imposing their wilder flights of fancy on all and sundry - which has helped Ozwald Boateng make a name for himself by allowing his clients to express their exuberance while also keeping it under wraps.

In all honesty that car is nothing, I grew up seeing some of the most expensive bad taste you can image bought by people like the owners of that SLS.

My father is a retired goldsmith/enameller and one of the handfull of people left that could restore genuine Faberge items to a standard that couldn't be distinguised from the original. So we had a couple of eggs at home once which were worth obscene amounts of money.

But it was the odd things he used to bring home that gave you an insight into what people with too much money bought.

A 9mm Beretta, 24 ct gold plated which he was carving solid gold grips for, oh and engraving arabic script on some 18 ct gold bullet casings also.

Special order Purdey shotguns that were a little to intricate for the in house engravers to deal with.

A pair of full size Flamingos, solid silver, enamelled Pink - these nearly killed him actually when he had an accident with a few gallons of Hydrofluoric acid - but that's a another story.

Ultimately, people with huge sums of money couldn't care less what anyone thinks of them. That isn't subjecting bad taste to anyone, they simply do what they do.

Take the SLS for example, most of us on here wouldn't comprehend doing that, but when you can own as many as you like, you own a nice classy one for days you want a discreet vehicle (well relatively), then you have a matt purple one for the days you don't.

The trouble with judging someones taste is it's always judged from your own perspective, these people are so far away from our perspective they aren't even in our peripheral vision.

 

[MOCAŠ]

This is where we get into how complex and multi-dimensional a subject this is.

Your opening comment above shows that you regard these indulgences as examples of bad taste. Yet I would argue that the primary value of a Fabergé egg was in the intricacy of the work that went into it. (By the way, if your father was capable of working to that standard then he has my respect.) The monetary value of these eggs derived initially from the amount of craftsmanship (and precious metals) that went into them, and the fact that this naturally limited the supply, bolstered by the reputation of Fabergé as a company. In later years, this value grew greatly as the eggs became trophy items for collectors. Once news of those values becomes widespread, people start trying to make sense of the sums in relation to their own experience, and before you know it the artefacts themselves are being dismissed as being tacky laregly due to the amount of money for which they changed hands.

However, regardless of how far beyond my own meagre means that monetary value might be, I have difficulty in thinking of it as being obscene. Money is just that - a means by which goods are exchanged. How can anyone objectively judge at what point an amount of it becomes obscene, or 'too much'?

What these eggs have in common with the guns, flamingos and various other trappings of wealth is that they are all primarily enjoyed in private, and the only people outside the owner's own circle who would even be aware of their existence would be the people involved in their production, acquisition and maintenance, who would take such things in their stride and no doubt exercise discretion. The SLS, on the other hand, is being consumed very conspicuously indeed - not only being paraded around the streets of London, but having been brought over here specifically for the purpose. This is about wanting to create an impression, about ostentation. I don't doubt your assertion that the people you're referring to couldn't care less what anyone thinks of them and are 'simply doing what they do', but my point is that what they are doing is in poor taste, and they're not doing it because they're wealthy; the fact that they're wealthy just allows them to do it. What they are lacking, that people with taste have, is the quality of restraint; the ability to decide whether or not someting is appropriate for the occasion.

The topic becomes multi-dimensional when you being to consider how one's nationality, culture, education, upbringing (yes, that again) and life experience all influence one's perception of what constitutes good or bad taste. As I think we're agreed, there's no universal standard for this, so it will always be subjective, but it can be quite finely judged in relation to one's environment.

I still maintain that whether or not one has taste is related not to how much money one has, nor even directly to what one spends it on, but essentially to how one behaves. The very notion of buying quantities of the same car in different colours for different occasions smacks of bad taste, as it indicates a lack of discernment on the part of the buyer. Whether they care or not is another matter.

 

[grober]

If you want your car to look like a d**k with a bad case of Gonorrhea then go for it--- as the guys at your local STD clinic might say with a knowing smile.

 

[WDB124066]

Wasn't London THE centre of pop art in the 60's? Was it not THE place to show what you had?

I think this is Car Art & I would not have thought that it is that objectionable at all. Only, I think it could do with something to break up the purple. Quite possibly bright red or bright orange pin striping or detailing of some kind - but it needs to be done with taste. Give it a few years and a car like this will put the BMW "Art Cars" in their place.

Which would you rather have http://www.mbclub.co.uk/forums/general-discussion/91382-2010-plate-sls-amg-spotted-my-local-tonight.html

I have Dutch heritage so my tastes in relation to things bright and "out there" is simply natural.
An East Asian on the other hand would almost certainly go for the black one!!

 

[WDB124066]

See here.....

Triumph Herald Convertible 1967 for sale - TradeMe.co.nz - New Zealand

 

[MOCAŠ]

Wasn't London THE centre of pop art in the 60's? Was it not THE place to show what you had?

Well, that's certainly where the movement started during the previous decade, although by the Swinging Sixties I'd say the centre had moved to New York. But quibbles aside, are we really proposing that an SLS with a matt purple wrap is a work of art? Surely it's just a trinket? I mean, where's the artistic integrity? The BMW Art Cars are in a different league.

I'd also suggest that the goalposts of what's considered acceptable tend to move with prevailing trends and fashions, as Calvin Harris recently pointed out. The 60s fashions and colours evolved out of the more muted tones of the previous decade, as people finally started to leave austerity behind and seek fresh inspiration. Even so, there was a considerable culture shock amongst those with more conservative tastes (ie: almost everyone over the age of 30 at the time) as the younger generation proceeded to c0ck a snook at their elders - and authority in general - with their choices in fashion and music. With some notable exceptions, including the psychadelic colours scheme adopted by John Lennon for his Phantom V, the British motoring colour palette remained fairly restrained until the later years of the decade started to herald the advent of the Seventies (officially now known as The Decade That Taste Forgot).

Speaking of Heralds, good find! Am I right in thinking that that one would have been a Nelson-assembled example? Not sure that's a contemporary UK colour. Actually, is that even its original colour, or the result of a mid-Seventies re-think? Either way, it somehow sits far more comfortably on that Herald than it would on any modern car, SLS included.

Even at the height of the Seventies excesses we would have had to go a long way here in the UK to outdo our Antipodean cousins. Witness the playfully-named colours offered on the ill-fated Leyland P76, such as Hairy Lime, NV Green, Plum Loco, Peel Me A Grape, Oh Fudge, Bold As Brass and Home on Th'Orange.

 

[WDB124066]

Don't you just love the red seats in that Herald, the steering wheel is not right at all, but the seats against the purple, oh my goodness....... The SLS is seriously screaming out for some red or orange, even inside. I am not sure what a wrap is, I don't think it has caught on here yet, or if it has, not in provincial NZL anyway.

I think much of the pop art and bright colours in general had their roots in the psychedelic drug goings on at the time. That was when I was young, I remember playing in a sandpit at Kindy and Primary School when those colours found their way onto Matchbox Italian exotica, and right there was when I became interested in cars. I was very happy indeed when I first noticed Holden and Ford (down under) came out with the same bright psychedelic colours on their new performance V8 models - only a few years ago - and thought to myself the people who approved that were obviously inspired by the same things I was, maybe even playing with the same Matchbox Italian masterpieces??
Who could ever forget the pistachio Miura, the burnt orange C111 and so many other exotic cars of the period – even the magenta Stag. To me this SLS is only a repeat of that theme and I for one am pleased to see it. Tasteful? Well that is very much in the eye of the beholder. Outrages yes, does it fit?? Maybe we ought to ask for different coloured flowers outside the Dorchester.

As for the Herald, I don’t think it is an original colour out of Nelson at least. But I am surprised you even knew of the Plant – I’m impressed!! Yes it is most likely assembled in Nelson but there have been a few assembled imports many years ago when you needed “overseas funds” to buy a new car in NZL.
For some strange reason I don’t like purple Heralds, not that purple anyway. To me it smacks of some manic depressive type and that I don’t find tasteful – same with purple houses. To wear purple with taste you need it to be expensive and exclusive that’s when it really makes a tasteful impact.

One last note from me, I spent several months in Qatar on a Shutdown a couple of years ago and during that time I made it my business to find out a little about the Qatari Royal Family. I have to say I genuinely have great respect for them. The Emir of Qatar donated a swag of money to New Orleans after Katina and has totally transformed his country in a different way to that of the UAE. They truly look after their people, you have to admire them for that!

http://s2.desktopmachine.com/pics/MB_C111-06-1024.jpg

http://www.lamborghinifans.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/Lamborghini-Miura-P400SV.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads16/57%2Blamborghini%2Bmiura1257306380.jpg

 

[grober]

Speaking of Heralds, good find! Am I right in thinking that that one would have been a Nelson-assembled example? Not sure that's a contemporary UK colour. Actually, is that even its original colour, or the result of a mid-Seventies re-think? Either way, it somehow sits far more comfortably on that Herald than it would on any modern car, SLS included.



I can confirm that was pretty much an original colour available on the UK market. The concession to modernity are the body coloured bumpers which would have been chrome or possibly white rubber originally??

The key to effective car styling is in the detailing. This where vast areas of body colour are relieved with small contrasting areas of different colour or finish [faux or otherwise]. This is "signalling" telling the onlooker that function exists- that the car is a mechanism which is inherent to its existence-- its reason to be--why it exists--its something normally accepted at a subconscious level. Spray it --wrap it--- monochrome destroys this, which means the object may as well be made of 10,000 packets of Rowantrees' purple jelly mix from Tescos. This basic truth seems to be lost on the " Maniac with a Spray Can from Halfords school of Art"

 

[del320]

...and another thing: that Herald started life as a saloon!

Hideous and worth zero.

If good taste was be defined as conforming to the generally accepted standards, manners and decorum of a greater or lesser society we'd then have to define those very standards.

I have in the past enjoyed dinner at the homes of two separate peers of the realm. Both prosperous but not obscenely rich. Their homes exibited a genteel faded elegance which which epitomised good taste.

Friends have recently returned from a holiday in Marbella where they were introduced to a certain type who featured on Piers Morgan's recent TV portrait.

Horrific! Ferrari 430, gold sov ring, bloody marys at 10:00am...

There was an article in Sunday's paper about how Ashley and Cheryl Cole had spent £5m transforming, and in so doing comprehensively wrecking, a Home Counties Arts and Crafts house.

As for purple - I will never forget tearing the ar$e out of my purple flares as a result of several exuberant laps in a go-kart in Aviemore - c1969.

 

[Swozza]

To me it looks like its been photoshoped!

 

[LTD]

Would opinions have changed if the colour was not a wrap and was provided as a 'Designo' package straight from the factory ?

I don't like the colour but it suits the life it will have in Bahrain. Against pale stone, blue skies and open sands it will look stunning.

Let us not forget that magentas, crimsons, umbers and other rich colours feature strongly in Arabic culture and life. For them, 'williow white' paint on their walls is not an option.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder - taste is subjective.

I'd like to have the money to make the mistake.

 

[WDB124066]

Wouldn't go too badly in The Oman either.......

 

[Mudster]

It's funny how your idea of taste is the epitome of Englishness. We rejoice on putting people on a pedestal only to knock them off.

As soon as someone does well for themselves we all crow "how vulgar" that they drive a Bentley.

I have a regular building contractor customer, not the sort that builds extensions and such, but rather 28 story blocks of "executive apartments" and such...multi million pound stuff.

He bought a Ferrari a couple of years back but found He simply couldn't drive it anywhere if it needed to be parked and left unattended, it was keyed/vandalised etc. It became such a problem He found he simply couldn't use it, so sold it and bought a Bentley....Same problem, so he sold that and bought a Range Rover Sport, which was left alone.

Go to America and drive a Ferrari/Aston Martin/Bentley, people on the whole will shake your hand and pat you on the back at living the American Dream.

So your question of taste (or more accurately what you see as vulgarity at "spoiling" a lovey car") has less to do with the item itself and more to do with your perception of where it stands in your idea of society.

Consider this also, the owner is clearly wealthy enough never to have to wonder if he could afford anything at all, He could have taken that car to a bodyshop and have it painted, but He chose a wrap, that can be changed if He wish...pretty sensible in my mind if you fancy a purple car....

Also consider it protects it from the idiots that key cars through jealousy.

For some reason, you think this guy parking his car outside the hotel at which he's staying is somehow forcing his taste down your throat.....ever considered looking in another direction?

 

[Ted]

The Hillman Avenger was also available in purple

And orange if you fancied a Tiger

AND bilious lime green, but I cant find a piccy.


Edit: Found one.

 

[MOCAŠ]

It's funny how your idea of taste is the epitome of Englishness.

Interesting conclusion to draw. I've acknowledged that a person's taste will inevitably be influenced by a wide variety of factors (including where/how they were brought up), so it's not at all strange that my own taste should have been shaped by an English upbringing. However, it was also underpinned by a tenet that can be traced all the way back to the 4th Century Milanese bishop Ambrose: when in Rome, do as the Romans do. Ambrose adopted this stance as a way of avoiding unnecessary conflict amongst differing religious factions, but it stands today as a worthwhile reminder that the most effective way to gain acceptance in society is to assimilate one's surroundings and the local culture. And if you don't think the wealthy Arabs, Bahrainis and others visiting or living in London care about whether they are accepted in society, ask yourself why they gravitate towards the pillars of the Establishment rather than setting themselves up in splendid isolation within some self-constructed ghetto.

We rejoice on putting people on a pedestal only to knock them off. As soon as someone does well for themselves we all crow "how vulgar" that they drive a Bentley.

This comment seems a little off-beam from the original discussion: you seem to have drifted into the realms of envy and tabloid sales tactics. Driving a Bentley (or any other prestigious car) is unlikely to result in someone being considered vulgar per se, although admittedly the odd eyebrow might be raised by some at any attendant incongruity. However, I know of nobody who actually has the kind of Aunt Sally mentality you refer to. It's sad to hear that your customer's cars suffered vandalism, but I suspect the most that someone who found those cars distateful would have done is tutted to themselves and perhaps muttered something mildly disparaging under their breath. By and large, people who care about taste are not the kind to go around inflicting mindless damage on other people's property.

Go to America and drive a Ferrari/Aston Martin/Bentley, people on the whole will shake your hand and pat you on the back at living the American Dream.

This seems like another sweeping generalisation to me. America has a growing underclass of people who feel excluded from, or even abandoned by, society. And I am not using the term underclass pejoratively here - that is exactly what American society has made these people. For every young college graduate chasing Uncle Sam's Dream, there will be two, maybe more, people living below the poverty line with no hope for the future, much less a dream. Well, perhaps they now have a glimmer of hope in the shape of Obama's promised medical welfare reforms, but it has taken the US a long time to realise what what a divided society it has become.

So your question of taste (or more accurately what you see as vulgarity at "spoiling" a lovey car") has less to do with the item itself and more to do with your perception of where it stands in your idea of society... For some reason, you think this guy parking his car outside the hotel at which he's staying is somehow forcing his taste down your throat.....ever considered looking in another direction?

I haven't suggested that the car has been spoiled by this treatment, nor have I said its owner was forcing his taste down my throat (which doesn't really bear thinking about), more that he is failing to exercise any judgement about what is appropriate in a given situation. We're clearly never going to agree on this, but your argument seems to be that provided you're rich enough you don't need to worry about such things, whereas my point is simply that it's not about being rich, and that you'll find people with very similar outlooks throughout the social scale, but particularly at the extremes; how else do you explain the recent stories of people wandering round supermarkets and taking their children to school in their nightwear...

 

[MOCAŠ]

Who could ever forget the pistachio Miura, the burnt orange C111 and so many other exotic cars of the period – even the magenta Stag. To me this SLS is only a repeat of that theme and I for one am pleased to see it. Tasteful? Well that is very much in the eye of the beholder. Outrages yes, does it fit?? Maybe we ought to ask for different coloured flowers outside the Dorchester.

The gaily coloured Italian exotica of the late Sixties and early Seventies were very much of their era, and I find that they don't jar at all. If anything they are evocative of Neoplitan and Mediterranean townscapes, and would have felt perfectly at home in their environment. I once hankered after a Fiat X1/9 1300 in Giallo Fly with matt black bumpers, a look that few cars could carry off so successfully, if at all. Its Italian heritage and delicate Bertone lines made all the difference. Yellow SLKs just looked lumpen by comparison.

I am surprised you even knew of the Plant – I’m impressed!!

I put togther a page about the motor industry in NZ for a mate's website several years ago, so I had a vague recollection of Heralds being assembled initially at Christchurch, then later at Nelson.

 

[WDB124066]

The Hillman Avenger was also available in purple

And orange if you fancied a Tiger

AND bilious lime green, but I cant find a piccy.


Edit: Found one.

Love the orange one! IMHO the SLS could do with a bit of detailing like this just to finish "the look" off, otherwise it is getting dangerously close to the purple one - which I am not so keen on.

 

[WDB124066]

Regarding appropriateness, in this particular instance I wonder if the owner of that SLS just wanted to recreate those special colour themes of the sixties – they seem to have left the other cars standard. And, IMHO London really is the place for a showing of this sort, not really New York as such. Londoners should see this as a complement as their city is still seen as THE place for those that can to display such works of art.

Regarding taste, it just needs finishing off with some extra detailing in equally outrageous colours, done tastefully - and there is the key - just to show the car and the theme properly and to its full extent.

The dangers are of course that we become overloaded with people who chose to do the same, and, often those form the Middle East, or elsewhere for that matter, really do get it WRONG! But, once in while it is nice to see a modern interpretation of a blast from the past, and really what better canvas is there than the latest offering form the MB stable shown in the greatest modern gallery of the present age – London.

Go get em Al Thani! God Bless.

 

[WDB124066]

...and another thing: that Herald started life as a saloon!

Hideous and worth zero.

Would this be better?

Triumph Herald 1966 for sale - TradeMe.co.nz - New Zealand

 

[del320]

Would this be better?

Triumph Herald 1966 for sale - TradeMe.co.nz - New Zealand

Indeed it would not!

What is it with you Kiwis, sawing the roofs off saloons?

As any fule kno, the convertible has curved glass in the doors thereby creating an entirely different hood profile!