Teachers - you couldn't make it up ...

[Ian the aviator]

As a callow youth if you had asked me if I wanted to join the teaching profession after going through the system and seeing about 4 really good ones in a sea of mediocrity, I would have said"shove it up your a~+*&.!"
Unfortunately this was reinforced in my 24 years as a flying instructor and CFI when I had the ultimate test for any instructor. One to one with a poor sod who's paying for you personally, who wants to learn as quickly as possible, AND it be fun, AND he or she not kill you twice in the next hour.!.
Seeing my daughters going through primary school now i,ve seen one good vocational teacher , good on her, and the rest (all women bar one "metro sexual male")just don't stand out as anywhere near the right material.

As an aside my one moment of infamy with the teaching profession occoured in the early 80's when Dereck Jameson was doing what is Chris Evans's slot now on Radio 2.
I was using a then very new microlight to look stock on our family farm in the lake district. The redoubtable Mr jameson interviewed me at about 7 am and it went out at about 8. 15 when as it turns out most of the leather elbowe patched ones were sloping off to school.
Anyway he didnt approach the interview in the style of "the man who wants to be a budgie" and as a result got a good interview that in the end ran to nearly 8 mins.
His final question genuinely put was "Ian as a townie tell me are sheep really as dense as we think".?
To which I unthinkingly replied " Well derick you have to remember they are simple creatures of habit really, less intellegent than a sheep dog but more intellegent than a PE teacher".
He kept the corrispondance going for a week after that!!.
Pip Pip Ian

 

[Giantvanman]

His final question genuinely put was "Ian as a townie tell me are sheep really as dense as we think".?
To which I unthinkingly replied " Well derick you have to remember they are simple creatures of habit really, less intellegent than a sheep dog but more intellegent than a PE teacher".

Pip Pip Ian

Excellent. And funny.

 

[balge]

Fair enough, but then you'll find very poorly qualified and inept people at the bottom of any profession. I think the reality now is that the 'professions', all of them, no longer command much respect. Lawyers for example, and increasingly Accountants, have proven to have, in many cases, very little or no professional integrity.

Also increasingly those achieving success and financial rewards in life are not 'professionals' who are merely employees, working for those who have the money and influence (who all too often don't have particularly great formal education or qualifications).

Back to the subject. Teaching, like any other profession, has some members who are well qualified, and are exceptional professionals. It also has some inept members, and some criminals. Denigrating the profession due to those who are less professional serves no useful purpose.

I think you're description of teaching clearly demonstrates that you are speaking from a position of total ignorance. As I mentioned previously, my wife is currently doing a PGCE, and as I write, is dong her third placement, as part of a 15 month course, at the end of which she will be able to get a job, in which for the first year, she will effectively be a trainee, at the end of which she will be a fully qualified teacher. So the reality of a four year degree, plus let's say a year for PGCE, and a year final on the job training, does not really tally with your comments about two GCSE's.

Each lesson requires hours of planning, nothing whatsoever like 'reading out the national curriculum'. There is massive focus on strategies to engage every child in the class, and ensuring that each child will benefit from every lesson to the utmost, despite a wide range of abilities. There is a lot to learn about maintaining discipline, despite working with children who at home, and in general in society have no respect for any authority (learned at home).

Accepting that teaching, and teachers, are incredibly important to the future of our children, it is surely better to have a positive approach to education and teachers, and no be over keen to rush to judgement, condemn and complain. This attitude carries through to children, and causes a large part of the problems encountered in the classroom.

Yes, the profession could be better. Standards are falling because of problems recruiting enough good quality personnel, due to poor salaries, conditions, and poor treatment in general of teachers. However there are still a high number of extremely good people doing a valuable and tough job, for little reward, in conditions which most of us would not tolerate. They should be applauded not condemned (even if they do turn out to be human, and make a mistake/ typo).

I will not waste any more time on this thread, but I thank you for helping me to appreciate what a valuable job teachers do in fact perform in society, and increasing my admiration for what my wife is doing. Your posts demonstrate the extremely thankless nature of their task, and the ignorance and prejudice they have to overcome every day, yet, due to their vocation, their wish to inspire and educate children, poor pay and conditions, they continue.

Hardly total ignorance, I have family with over forty years teaching between them, I have seen teachers at work often enough to grasp the basics of the job.
A PGCE is not even a masters is it? And in any case is purely optional ie not required to teach, just for a raise...Your good lady may be taking that route, but according to UCAS it is not a requirement. The route I described is also viable, just.
Each lesson may require a few hours planning, or you can just cut and paste stuff, either way a six hour day and thirteen weeks of holiday certainly allow a bit of slack for out of office work... they teach what's on the curriculum and nothing else, in reality.
All that stuff about strategies and abilities sounds great, but again in most places reality is closer to my description than the 'official line' - come exam time it's pass rate that counts, not helping little Johnny with his personal problem...

I think this massive disconnect between aspiration and reality is why so many new teachers bail out within a couple of years (about 50% within five years, and a 'churn rate' of 10%/year?)
https://www.tes.co.uk/article.aspx?storyCode=11006226

Blaming the parents for the pupils behaviour is a bit weak, the job is all about controlling them to make them learn, that's what the training is supposed to be for, if teachers can't do that, they can't do their job. Any supervisory job entails supervising people who don't necessarily want to be supervised.
As to a 'positive attitude' I would have thought a realistic outlook would be more useful, but judging by the responses on here to a bit of mild ribbing, the profession does not take kindly to criticism of any kind.

And low pay and conditions - really? £22k starting for a grad is actually quite high today - for public sector workers, but they average close to £35k, well above average income...
Average UK Wage Is £27,000 So How Does Your Salary Compare? | Mind The Money ? Finance Made Easy | Personal Finance Blog
I know a teacher on £50k+, pretty good for a 2-2 Art grad without the common sense to come in out of the rain...
At least your wife will probably be safe, as long as she gets a good 'classroom assistant' or 'minder' as they call them - to help maintain discipline, as apparently keeping children in line is so difficult it takes two nowadays... Don't mention the fact that those parents themselves are products of the same system in the first place eh...

If you think any criticism is automatically 'ignorance and prejudice', then you'll fit right in, and you will probably be surprised that some people do not share your rose-tinted and archaic view of the trade.

The state education system is designed to churn out docile little machine-minders and shop assistants, the education provided is little more than learning sitting still and doing as they're told all day, with basic communication and numeracy so they will be better servants and consumers.

Just try questioning the received wisdom, they're down on you like a bunch of cultists on an unbeliever, vested interests won't accept criticism of their cosy little world.
All that talk 'vocation' and stuff rings a little hollow when the only thing that ever moves teachers to protest is not the state of education, but the state of their T&Cs...

Anyway, it's been a change getting a rational response, back to the baiting.

 

[PXW]

Guys I suggest you both get a grip. It's just a car forum and lots of people have views you won't agree with.

I've got a grip, thanks. Look back over the thread - I've said nothing intemperate.

 

[BTB 500]

And when you brought it to the attention of the school, how did they respond?

As I've said a few times now I considered it funny/ironic rather than a serious issue. I'm not sure what they could practically do about grammar/spelling mistakes though, short of paying my wife to proof-read their letters before they send them out

 

[finisterre]

hey balge!

Lots of holiday.
Easy days.
Short hours,
Gold plated pension,
Loads a money.

Why aren't you a teacher.?




Err not really. I think your temperament may be unsuited.

 

[mat8n]

hey balge!

Lots of holiday.
Easy days.
Short hours,
Gold plated pension,
Loads a money.

Why aren't you a teacher.?




Err not really. I think your temperament may be unsuited.

That has nothing to do with being a competent teacher.

Having an opposing view and criticizing teachers doesn't necessarily mean that person could do that job.

I'm sure we've all criticized judges decisions in the past(no doubt in the future too), That doesn't mean we could all be judges does it?

Teachers are a different bread,
When I was a parent governor the head mistress of my sons school got another job with the LEA(local education authority). we had a meeting and the head wanted to leave at the end of term(approx 4 weeks away), the regulations stated she had to give two terms notice(no problems from her future employers or anywhere but they would prefer her to start asap).
We had to make a decision on what she could do.
I said words to the effect.... She should go asap, as we are going to announce her leaving, so all the parents will wonder why she is doing next term when her heart isn't in the job, I also explained that I understood that that wouldn't be the case as she was a fantastic head mistress, but the parents(real world) would think the same as me. Best to let her go.
They could not get their heads around how non teachers would think.
We ended up letting her go asap.

But what got me was the teachers attitude(not good or bad) but in my opinion not in touch with the outside world.

 

[Bellow]

Teachers are a different bread,.

Do(ug)h!!!

 

[finisterre]

Mat8n

I did use smileys fore and aft to indicate my post was intended to amuse.

I am uncertain of your point. I do know that the last time I handed my notice in I was given a mediocre cheque, a cardboard box holding my desk drawer contents, and a security guard escorted me off the premises. Is that what you thought should happen to the head in your story?

 

[balge]

hey balge!

Lots of holiday.
Easy days.
Short hours,
Gold plated pension,
Loads a money.

Why aren't you a teacher?



Err not really. I think your temperament may be unsuited.

Me too, I would have real difficulty putting up with all the bullsh*t - and bullsh*tters - in that line of work. Having seen it close up.
Lovely of you to think of me, though.
<3

 

[bozmandb9]

Hardly total ignorance, I have family with over forty years teaching between them, I have seen teachers at work often enough to grasp the basics of the job.
A PGCE is not even a masters is it? And in any case is purely optional ie not required to teach, just for a raise...Your good lady may be taking that route, but according to UCAS it is not a requirement. The route I described is also viable, just.
Each lesson may require a few hours planning, or you can just cut and paste stuff, either way a six hour day and thirteen weeks of holiday certainly allow a bit of slack for out of office work... they teach what's on the curriculum and nothing else, in reality.
All that stuff about strategies and abilities sounds great, but again in most places reality is closer to my description than the 'official line' - come exam time it's pass rate that counts, not helping little Johnny with his personal problem...

I think this massive disconnect between aspiration and reality is why so many new teachers bail out within a couple of years (about 50% within five years, and a 'churn rate' of 10%/year?)
https://www.tes.co.uk/article.aspx?storyCode=11006226

Blaming the parents for the pupils behaviour is a bit weak, the job is all about controlling them to make them learn, that's what the training is supposed to be for, if teachers can't do that, they can't do their job. Any supervisory job entails supervising people who don't necessarily want to be supervised.
As to a 'positive attitude' I would have thought a realistic outlook would be more useful, but judging by the responses on here to a bit of mild ribbing, the profession does not take kindly to criticism of any kind.

And low pay and conditions - really? £22k starting for a grad is actually quite high today - for public sector workers, but they average close to £35k, well above average income...
Average UK Wage Is £27,000 So How Does Your Salary Compare? | Mind The Money ? Finance Made Easy | Personal Finance Blog
I know a teacher on £50k+, pretty good for a 2-2 Art grad without the common sense to come in out of the rain...
At least your wife will probably be safe, as long as she gets a good 'classroom assistant' or 'minder' as they call them - to help maintain discipline, as apparently keeping children in line is so difficult it takes two nowadays... Don't mention the fact that those parents themselves are products of the same system in the first place eh...

If you think any criticism is automatically 'ignorance and prejudice', then you'll fit right in, and you will probably be surprised that some people do not share your rose-tinted and archaic view of the trade.

The state education system is designed to churn out docile little machine-minders and shop assistants, the education provided is little more than learning sitting still and doing as they're told all day, with basic communication and numeracy so they will be better servants and consumers.

Just try questioning the received wisdom, they're down on you like a bunch of cultists on an unbeliever, vested interests won't accept criticism of their cosy little world.
All that talk 'vocation' and stuff rings a little hollow when the only thing that ever moves teachers to protest is not the state of education, but the state of their T&Cs...

Anyway, it's been a change getting a rational response, back to the baiting.

That's actually pretty interesting Balge, our positions are much closer than I thought, and it may well be that I am just naive about the reality of the profession, or over defensive due to my wife going in!

I have noticed the tendency you refer to, the over defensiveness to any suggestion of improvement etc. I've also noticed a tendency towards early establishment of a paranoia, and encouragement of a union type mentality, which refuses to recognise that there will be people who are not up to the job, and they should either be fired, or at the very least paid less.

It's a broad problem isn't it, since a large part of the problems with education are down to too much government intervention. Look at where the UK provides excellent education, and it's in the private sector, where the government has pretty much no control.

However teaching unions react badly to any attempt to improve or modernise, or generally change the status quo, particularly if there is any suggestion that anybody will lose their job, or be paid any less.

Sir Anthony Seldon, the current head (about to retire) of Wellington College, wrote an interesting paper, discussing the problem, and proposing solutions. I harbour a hope that he will, in his retirement, become a special advisor to the government. His paper is here if you're interested.

In any event, I am sure that the industry does have it's problems, but am sure my wife will be seeing the industry at at's best, rather than it's worst, since we are lucky enough to live in an area which tends to have excellent state school provision, as well as some great private schools.

 

[Dryce]

It's a broad problem isn't it, since a large part of the problems with education are down to too much government intervention. Look at where the UK provides excellent education, and it's in the private sector, where the government has pretty much no control.

The private sector is not a fair comparison. They get some additional resources - a higher % of committed parents - the opportunity to select - and *most significantly* none of the problems.

However teaching unions react badly to any attempt to improve or modernise, or generally change the status quo, particularly if there is any suggestion that anybody will lose their job, or be paid any less.

This isn't really an issue specific to teaching. This is generally true of unions in any sector. Particularly where there are specific skills or job functions.

 

[balge]

That's actually pretty interesting Balge, our positions are much closer than I thought, and it may well be that I am just naive about the reality of the profession, or over defensive due to my wife going in!

I have noticed the tendency you refer to, the over defensiveness to any suggestion of improvement etc. I've also noticed a tendency towards early establishment of a paranoia, and encouragement of a union type mentality, which refuses to recognise that there will be people who are not up to the job, and they should either be fired, or at the very least paid less.

It's a broad problem isn't it, since a large part of the problems with education are down to too much government intervention. Look at where the UK provides excellent education, and it's in the private sector, where the government has pretty much no control.

However teaching unions react badly to any attempt to improve or modernise, or generally change the status quo, particularly if there is any suggestion that anybody will lose their job, or be paid any less.

Sir Anthony Seldon, the current head (about to retire) of Wellington College, wrote an interesting paper, discussing the problem, and proposing solutions. I harbour a hope that he will, in his retirement, become a special advisor to the government. His paper is here if you're interested.

In any event, I am sure that the industry does have it's problems, but am sure my wife will be seeing the industry at at's best, rather than it's worst, since we are lucky enough to live in an area which tends to have excellent state school provision, as well as some great private schools.

Thank you for the link, sobering reading.

Much better reading than my rants.

A little bit 'free market' on schools independence for me perhaps, but hard to fault the analysis. I especially like the '20 Points', and the 'short history of education' is a little gem.

http://www.anthonyseldon.co.uk/pictures/CPS%20booklet.pdf

I wonder if any other posters can add anything...

Remember, schools are desperate for warm bodies, your wife can afford to take her time and pick a decent school and avoid a 'sausage factory'.

 

[finisterre]

On 'Teachers only strike when their T&C are under threat'.

They are not allowed to strike for any other reason. Eg, it is illegal to strike because a child has been admitted to a school and he is known to have raped younger children. (I kid you not) Refusal to teach said child would be a disciplinary matter. Mentioning the danger outside the chain of command would be career suicide too.

I will have a look at the Seldon commentary later. Suffice it to say, his analysis has form for
bigging up the independent sector at the expense of state provision, which is no surprise, he pulls down over £150k pa as a head and sometime spokesperson for the wotsisname conference.

 

[finisterre]

Apologies.

Seldon seems sound enough in the pamphlet. *i think, I would like to see how he would implement these changes in a micromanaged political football of a system. Unfortunately we would need to hive off (about 10%) a rump of disruptive students to achieve it and that will be expensive.

I haven't seen that PDF before. I will throw it into the ring at TES and see how it is assessed.

Thanks for the link.

Edit. Its a bit old, 2010, I will have to do a bit of research to see what impact it had...

 

[balge]

On 'Teachers only strike when their T&C are under threat'.

They are not allowed to strike for any other reason. Eg, it is illegal to strike because a child has been admitted to a school and he is known to have raped younger children. (I kid you not) Refusal to teach said child would be a disciplinary matter. Mentioning the danger outside the chain of command would be career suicide too.

I will have a look at the Seldon commentary later. Suffice it to say, his analysis has form for
bigging up the independent sector at the expense of state provision, which is no surprise, he pulls down over £150k pa as a head and sometime spokesperson for the wotsisname conference.

I did not know that... But surely there are other ways to protest, all that union stuff went out in the 80s, for good and ill.
Don't seem to recall legal and medical types being big on unions
Why is the professional body not more outspoken? It seems odd leaving it to a union, surely there are more 21st century alternatives to braziers and donkey jackets.... if teachers are professionals, not just public sector workers

As to Seldon, his analysis of the current state seems accurate. I expect his suggestions for improvement are what worked for him so surely worth thinking about, dogma aside.

Public sector heads are on up to £110,000 themselves and the NUT boss
is on £150,000 too I believe...

 

[Ian the aviator]

Another factor that may explain some on here,s bad experiences of the past was the unbelievably low threshold required to get into teaching in the 70's
we used to employ girls in teacher training collage during holiday time as trekk leaders at our riding establishment in the lakes in the 70's and 80's.
At that time the main training collages in the north were Ponteland in geordieland and Bingley in Yorkshire.
one of our old friends from those days (who went on to be a primary school headmistress despite not liking children!!!! Go figure!)' Tells me you could get into Ponteland to do a basic qualification to teach in primary which was a 3 year fully grant maintained course. With a basic entry qualification of one o level (needlework would do not even English).
As a result her course was full of useless tosses (her words not mine). Who didn't know what to do , didn't want a job but wanted to hang about in the grant supported system and this course was about the lowest academic bar to jump over to get in " the system".
Rather worryingly she said as she settled into teaching some of the worst Burke,s and least able teachers ended up as her "superiors" at county level at Carlisle.
One thing that I feel the teaching trade might usefully take from my old game to help thin the deadwood is that when I used to be an instructing sky god , I used to be re rated every 25 months. about 3 months revision. Half day test And no pass no work.
Wouldn't that have a few spraying coffee over the granuad !!!
Pip pip ian

 

[balge]

So no longer a profession, definitely public sector workers in the low skill 'care' sector.

More than 400,000 schoolchildren being taught by unqualified teachers | Education | The Guardian

"Hunt said there were 17,100 unqualified teachers in state-funded schools – a rise of 16% in the past year."


BBC News - Warning of rise of 'unqualified teachers' in classrooms

"Schools are also allowed to employ people called "instructors" who have particular - usually vocational - skills but do not have QTS, and the rules governing when they can be hired were relaxed last September."

https://schoolleaders.thekeysupport...itions-of-employment-for-unqualified-teachers

"The conditions of employment for unqualified and qualified teachers in maintained schools are the same"

'Shocking' rise in number of London children taught by unqualified teachers - Politics - News - London Evening Standard


"Official figures say there are now 4,380 teachers without an education qualification in the capital’s schools, which is a rise of 900 in a year. Around one in 15 London teachers lack qualified status."

 

[wemorgan]

This thread is over 2 weeks old. Time to move on hey?

 

[balge]

Two weeks - an eternity indeed

It usually takes public sector workers two weeks to reply to anything.

Ignore a problem until it goes away fits the MO too...