Technical/Tuning threads

[Mark300SL]

First point - this post is intended to be in no way critical, its purely an observation, There seem to be way too many political or plainly argumentative posts on here fuelled by the same bunch of antagonists, but little hard core tuning discussion

Whilst there are a lot of MB specific knowledge here it is rare to find in depth tech talk about tuning in general. A lot of mods are what I call "factory" - Ie supplied by Ebay or MB stealers at a price and fitted following a "how-to"
This post has come as a result of a few in depth techy discussion on the CRX fourum on Cam timing, high lift cams and their effect on VE, many ECU remapping threads etc.

A couple of us are doing Mercedes turbo conversions, some are involved in engine swaps but the overall majority here seem to be quite happy with their lot. Does this means the cars are good enough to begin with? - or are they now becoming far too complex to modify in an "old school" manner ?


I do obviously appreciate that there is a huge technology gulf between a relatively recent MB and a 15year old Japanese shopping trolley - however we are discussing how to crack the Honda PGMFi ecu code and remap to our specific advantage so there are some similarities
Turbocharging and supercharging engines that were normally aspirated are regular topics, as is drag racing, track days, performance tyres (ie track tyres), Chassis mods have been done to death and its not just about getting a fast engine into a small car and forgetting the rest.

Any opinions appreciated and welcomed.

Mark

 

[stevesey]

I know what you mean about the lack of old school tuning - in years gone by I've done two engine rebuilds that involved fast road cams, some diy head porting/tidying, lightweight flywheel and so on. Aside from talk of changing compressor pulleys little seems to go on here.

Generally I think that's the case across the board these days though - the VX forums I used to frequent had some talk about cam swaps on the V6s - but still factory cams from the higher tuned models. Engines are more powerful out of the box and often a bigger in the first place these days, so perhaps there is less appetite for tuning. The whole focus seems to have move towards styling rather than tuning (IMHO) - tuning seems to be just for the hardcore few.

 

[whitenemesis]

I think in general MB owners are a different type to the hard core tuner. They are happy with their cars but will spend time / money to add options but not interested in mods that would invalidate warranty or possibly reduce reliability.

In short the cars are too expensive to mess with?

 

[Ian B Walker]

Very interesting topic Mark. I would be the first one to say teach me about re mapping etc as I would not know where to start. Wonders if this thread could be put in a section of its own? Don't know if it counts but tomorrow I am retro fitting an electric steering column to my 300-24, will take photos if anyone is interested. Also want to retro fit an air bag to it as well as Command. But I guess that these items would come under the bought off / Got from a dealer type of mod.

 

[R2D2]

I've remapped two Mercs but neither made huge gains. I have tried multiple airfilters and conclude that whilst a K & N sounds a bit better- blowing my MAS made it an expensive mod. I have looked at cams, bigger superchargers etc. but I get scared of changing the compression ratio and needing new pistons like the more powerful versions of my M271 engine.

My thread here
http://www.mbclub.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=44710&highlight=m271

covers the known mods for the M271 engine............
I need an engine Guru!

 

[grober]

I think the modding of cars now reflects the current motoring environment and society in general.


1. The triumph of style over substance. Owners putting a faux 2.3-16V body kit and big wheels on a stock 1.8 190. what's that about? Just a reflection on a sound bite society which places increasing importance of appearance over what lies beneath. So body kits are in and a 5inch exhaust attached to a weedy 1 litre engine is not deemed a joke.

2.Big brother is watching. What's the point of tuning your car for more performance when the roads are littered with speed cameras and traffic cars and helicopters all monitoring motorists behaviour.

3. Escalating costs. Why modify your car to use more fuel when the price of fuel and VED creeps ever upwards and the cost of insurance for the young driver is almost prohibitively expensive. Hence young people express their cars individuality with looks/bodykit or a bigger/better/more expensive sound system because thats the only avenue open to them.

4. Congested roads. The roads are now too full of cars for any increase in performance to be enjoyed. People now look for cars with characteristics that will simply alleviate the boredom of most journeys- so satnav to avoid the jams -if possible! in car entertainment for when your sitting in one, air conditioning to keep you cool , and comfortable seats cos you'll be sitting in them longer, and automatic transmission all seem more important than an extra 20bhp.

5.Law of diminishing returns. Most engines now are highly developed in comparison to days gone by. The bhp per litre figures are pretty impressive compared to the old days. Now a twin overhead cam 4 valves per cylinder fuel injected super/turbo charged light alloy engine controlled by a sophisticated ECU with a high output is taken for granted when in the past it was the sole province of Ferrari and other exotica. So its a bit difficult to markedly improve it much without a complete redesign.

6 Saving the planet. Ironically many of the engine improvements mentioned above are the result of manufacturers forced to make engines more efficient to meet increasingly stringent environmental legislation. People are now comparing gm/Km CO2 figures in the pub rather than BHP.

5. Sealed for life. With the advent of alternative fuels/ hybrids/emission regulations I reckon it wont be long before the powertrain becomes a totally sealed no go area for owners to maintain "emission intregrity" some say we are there already-almost.

Don't get me wrong I loved the "frontier days" of twin choke webers high lift cams and freeflow exhausts but they are rapidly becoming a fond memory as the face of motoring changes in the 21st century

Sorry for rambling on bit.

 

[recycled]

Not sure if the merc guys who tend to be older and wiser would be into as much mods and tuning like the fast anfd furious generation guys or maybe we are more concerned with warranty and smoothness than 0-60 and flaming exhausts, but you ae right though ,we need a few more techy threads

 

[moakesr]

Hi Mark,

I did my tuning with my RX-7, had loads of fun changing suspension, exhaust, engine mapping, turbo sequencing etc... so I understand exactly where you are coming from and know why you are doing it.

As for me now, I guess I just got it out of my system, and no longer have the 'drive' to do that kind of thing any more.

Good luck with what you do, it's so rewarding when you get things right, but so frustrating when things go wrong

 

[Mark300SL]

I have just got in from a nice relaxing day swapping out the engine on the Turbo CRX. There is nothin wrong at all with the 360hp 1600 - but a nice forged 1800 typr R engine with a bigger turbo is going in its place

Should be good for another 50-80hp without stressing it unduly, and 500-540 if we really let it have some boost.............

Dont get me wrong , I really enjoy my SL and I was always too scared to actually play with it as the parts/mistakes were too expensive, So I left my road tuning to the CRXs that I know so well. My personal foray into the land of true performance Mercs will start with my 1987 190E
Next week sees the last of the bits I need delivered and once the loom issue has finally been put to bed I can start with the power mods.

 

[Dieselman]

Be good to see. As you say we could do with some more technical threads, but people don't post them anymore due to the heckling they recieve now....

 

[Ade B]

I used to post regular tech queries, but nothing has broken on the CE for a while...

Would be happy to read about the adventures of others though..

I wish I had more time to tinker with the car - OT word of warning, don't ever, ever buy skirting from B&Q. It is utter ****e.

Ade

 

[MBManInKen]

due to the heckling they recieve now....

 

[imadoofus]

Whilst I would welcome more threads on tuning and so on (who knows, I may even read one or two), I am afraid that in general, tuning and 'customising' (if I may use that word) leave me cold. I simply don't see the point.

My first passion is for classic cars. I appreciate the design, both aesthetic and engineering, and I see no reason to mess. I have little problem with 'modernising' a classic for use in a modern environment (brakes, electronic ignition and so on), but I tend to believe that the people who built the car did a better job than I could, so I'll stick with what they did. I also have no real problem with period upgrades, which can include carbs, cams and the like as well as leather interiors and so on. I also thoroughly enjoy tinkering with engines and oily bits, so it's not that I'm averse to getting dirty.

I suppose as much as anything my attitude is guided by the fact that, although I could describe myself as a 'petrol-head' (among other things ), I have no interest at all in motor sport. I enjoy classic regularity and endurance rallies, and the odd bit of hillclimbing, but that's it.

I think Grober has made some very valid observations (as usual) but for me, modding just doesn't float my boat.

PJ

 

[Doodle]

I have just got in from a nice relaxing day swapping out the engine on the Turbo CRX. There is nothin wrong at all with the 360hp 1600 - but a nice forged 1800 typr R engine with a bigger turbo is going in its place

Should be good for another 50-80hp without stressing it unduly, and 500-540 if we really let it have some boost.............

There's no such thing as too much power...only not enough traction

Transplant going well I hope?

 

[Mark300SL]

been at the shop all day - 1800 engine build did not go to plan due to a warped crank - So I used another one from parts I had lying around

Engine is in, head is on and all the bottom end connected electrically and mechanically, just need to braze the oil return into the sump, fit new turbo and manifold and do the intake side.
Then its new intercooler time and a complete re-jig of the intake charge pipe system. Should be done by next weekend after a couple of evenings this week.

then its road tune and dyno time!

 

[RedGorilla]

hay all want to start a project on my w202 would it b posibble 2 change 1.8 m111 engine too something bigger???

 

[glojo]

Dont get me wrong , I really enjoy my SL and I was always too scared to actually play with it as the parts/mistakes were too expensive, So I left my road tuning to the CRXs that I know so well. My personal foray into the land of true performance Mercs will start with my 1987 190E
Next week sees the last of the bits I need delivered and once the loom issue has finally been put to bed I can start with the power mods.

I think you are answering your own question and I have left just one snippet.

My thoughts are that a modern Mercedes is an extremely complex beast that is more electronic than tektronic

An olde skool mechanic would be left completely flummoxed if he lifted the bonnet of a modern AMG and I doubt there is any of the nitty gritty bits even on view?

On newer Merc's I guess that before getting the spanners out, the first item any would be modder would require is a STAR Diagnostic computer and how much would that cost?

I love reading threads regarding the tuning of engines, but when it applies to a modern vehicle, my first thought is, 'bang goes the warranty'

I understand what your saying and there is a wealth of both talent and mods being carried out on older Merc's but the only way we find out what is going on is when we contact the relevant person via pm.


How many folks are adding turbo's to their 124's and how often are we getting news about their very interesting projects. Is this lack of communication down to the fact that we have a number of armchair critic's that take great delight is trying to belittle these folks endeavours?

My days of modding are over but yes been their and got the 'T' shirt.

Have we got any members that have the skill to do a really classy paint job on older Mercedes-Benz?

Regards
John

 

[Dieselman]

I understand what your saying and there is a wealth of both talent and mods being carried out on older Merc's but the only way we find out what is going on is when we contact the relevant person via pm.

How many folks are adding turbo's to their 124's and how often are we getting news about their very interesting projects. Is this lack of communication down to the fact that we have a number of armchair critic's that take great delight is trying to belittle these folks endeavours?

Interesting comments there John, bang on the button.
We should be posting our successes and failures when working on our Mercedes, but all to often peoples efforts are met with derision, instead of help and encouragement.
I am sure this is why people don't post about their own cars anymore.

 

[normanr]

Once again John talking a load of sense I agree with what he is saying.

I am the same as quite a few of the guys on the forum (old brigade) I used to do all sorts to cars years ago but they were not so complicated as they are now and the electrics are scary.

There have been some threads on here that the owner tried to do a basic repair and then ended up with more trouble than he anticipated regards sensor lights coming on, airlocks in the braking system etc.

I have great admiration for the fellows doing there mods and it is great to here what they have done plus the pictures.

 

[Mark300SL]

Just as an update - the 1800 lives and it sounds awesome

I will post a few pics in this thread when I get back to tune it this weekend - big thanks to Dorian for his brazing skills which made the individual fabrication processes so much easier