Tell Me About Camcorders Please

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Hello panel.

I want to purchase a decent camcorder.

Primary use is to record gigs that my lad plays, so sound quality is important, and maybe the odd bit of porn in the local Aldi car park, so low light capability is important too.

I understand a bit about 4K and with a budget of c£700 there are a few available, however, I don't want to produce videos so big (in pixel terms) that it will take a week for it to load them to YouTube.

A pal of mine recently bought a Sony Music Recorder, which has great audio through it's twin mics, but it's got no zoom meaning you have to get up close, which isn't always possible - and a side viewfinder too :(.
Mini Video Camera & Music Recorder | 1080p Camcorder | HDR-MV1 | Sony UK

I think I've learned that a camcorder will be better than a DSLR or phone for the usage I'm after.

And I also think I want wireless control.

All feedback/experience/recommendations gratefully received :thumb:.

And I'm joking about the porn in the Aldi car park - it will be a Waitrose as a minimum :D.
 
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Can't help with camcorder advice John but give me a shout if you need any extras for the porn. :D

Ant.
 
John, does it also need extreme close up capability?

No - you see, I know so little about them that I can't tell if you're about to offer sincere advice or some pearl necklace capability C?
 
If you want the best sound possible, get one with an external mike input and use it to record directly from the PA mixing desk if the band use one.

If they don't then ignore me.
 
I think your requirements are a bit unusual, hence the relatively small number of comments! I've got no experience of shooting video in low light or where sound quality is particularly important.

The only thing I'd add is that it may not be worth shooting in more than 1080p if you are primarily aiming to upload to YouTube. High res. video takes a lot more computer power to edit and play, and obviously the files are a lot bigger.

I shot some "2.5K" (2304x1296) video as a test a few months ago and Windows Media Player wouldn't play it (it gave audio only).
 
I also think it's worth thinking about the sound part. The tiny built in mics on these machines are terrible at coping with very loud sound (as in gigs) and likely to hugely distort the music deeming it next to useless when it comes to YouTube.

Ant.
 
I think your requirements are a bit unusual, hence the relatively small number of comments! I've got no experience of shooting video in low light or where sound quality is particularly important.

It will be a gigs, hence the audio and the low light.

The Sony handles both but it has the limitations mentioned.

Would a DSLR be any better?

Edit - not stadium gigs, mainly pub gigs.
 
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I don't know enough about cameras to give you a proper answer but I used to have a panasonic sd60 hd camcorder that was brilliant in auto mode, depth of field was great, nice and light, great zoom function and it used to focus really quickly but I scratched the lens and it's now useless :(

I bought a Canon 700d dslr as it's replacement and it's a great camera but sometimes I wish I'd of got another camcorder. I use it in manual mode and it works really well in low light levels with photographs without the need for a flash but never tried videoing with low light levels but can't see why it would be any different. I suppose with a dslr you have the option of an external mike either fixed to it or on a trailing lead, you could do the same with a camcorder too but the mike will probably be the same size :) the standard 55mm lens is ok but zoom function is poor.

I've just bought a drone that records in 2.7k and as btb500 says the files are massive and although my fairly basic video editor will play the clips it's not as smooth as I'd like which makes editing a bit of a pain, and to be honest I can't tell the difference between 2.7k and 1080p on playback anyway.

I found the guys at jessops are really helpful with info.
 
A DSLR has some advantages in low light.

The lens is usually quite large - and the larger the lens the more light it can let in.

You can also interchange the lens - and "Prime lenses" (i.e. non-zoom) usually have a lower f/number (i.e. let more light in)

If there is an auxiliary audio input you can use a small mixer and a few radio microphones to get better sound - but see what it's like with the built in mic first.

I was quite impressed with the sound my iPhone recorded at a recent arena gig. Certainly good enough for sharing on social media...
 
This is a huge subject and would take a couple of hours to write something that even touched the surface in terms of choices available and the pros and cons of SLRs v Mirrorless v Camcorders v Pro video camera - let alone the minefield that is on camera/off camera audio.

But in saying that here's a list of websites that we use when assessing new kit.

Probably the best reviewer of cameras in your price range is a guy called Maarten Heilbron.

He's an ex video pro based in Canada and reviews all types of camera - sometimes taking video at gigs...., so you might find his advice very pertinent.

The first link is his review of the Sony RX10 II, Mirrorless, including a thorough review of the camera shooting stills and video at a very dark gig. Take a look at his other reviews too, but warning - they are lengthy, detailed but exceptionally well presented and informative.

Sony RX10 II detailed hands-on review


Philip Bloom is probably the most well known videographer around and is an ex SKY cameraman who now earns his money shooting short films, ads etc using a variety of kit. Some pro, some semi pro, some amateur stuff too. He's very well known for shooting low light using Sony A7S mirrorless cameras. Do try and take a look at his Brighton Beach midnight videos that look like they were shot at midday. He's pretty much accepted as the leading authority in this space.

Dpreview is one of the oldest camera review sites. They do very in-depth reviews of SLRs and Mirrorless cameras and I think I am right in saying they have the largest (and most aggressive) online camera community in existence. If you do go the SLR/Mirrorless route, best to do a quick sanity check here before buying.

Moving on to sound, this is just a big an area, if not bigger than picture quality. Pros will often, if not always, capture sound off camera, most likely using kit from Sound Devices. or similar. In saying that if using an SLR or Mirrorless you might be ok with mounting a shotgun mic on top of the camera, but even then, few SLRs or Mirrorless cameras have decent sound recording capability immaterial of whether you use an external mic or not. So some will use something like a MIX Pre D from Sound Devices and feed this into the camera - assuming it has an external mic socket - or will feed the sound into a separate recorder, which of course will then need to be added to the video when you are back at base.

One very good guy to look at wrt lower end, but still very good audio is Curtis Judd. He reviews pro and semi pro camaras, lights and audio gear in a precise professional manner. In particular pay attention to his shotgun mic reviews (shotguns allow distance sound to be captured and are infinitely better than any on camera mics).

Sorry that the above only starts to explain your options. Happy to talk this through in more detail on the phone if you like... or saving that, maybe some other folks can suggest specific camera models for you...

(Edit: I note BTW that the forum software is randomly adding links to shopping sites - nothing to do with me)

Best wishes,

Chris

PS, Just thinking, if you can stretch your budget you could pick up one of the Canon C100/C300 first generation cinema cameras. Check them out on YT. They produce stunning 1080p video (not 4k), and until recently (the C300) was the camera of choice for the BBC and it's single man operation with shot gun mic holders built in - plus has decent quality audio handling.

Here's a low light test of the C100. Note, a lens needs to be purchased separately - but £2000 should cover the lot. not having 4k might put you off when looking at the future, but it would probably be my choice at under £2k in 2016 bearing in mind most videos are viewed on phones and tablets and non 4k TV and PCs.

Low light C100
 
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I've just bought a drone that records in 2.7k and as btb500 says the files are massive and although my fairly basic video editor will play the clips it's not as smooth as I'd like which makes editing a bit of a pain, and to be honest I can't tell the difference between 2.7k and 1080p on playback anyway.

Aerial footage is what I shoot and generally 1080p at a higher frame rate (50 or 60 fps) looks better.

The exception would be if you need to post-process to remove lens distortion (fisheye effect), or to stabilise the footage. Both of those crop the frame, so having a higher resolution to start with would be a plus.
 
I'd pay a bit more attention to how you record the sound. People will watch poor quality video but they won't listen to poor quality sound, even more so when it's a music video.

The ideal option would be to record directly from the PA desk but if that's not possible perhaps a separate recorder such as the Zoom H1 mounted in a suitable position?
 
Quick update time.

I contacted Jessops (thanks Marty) explaining my requirements and the guy came back with Sony RX10 Mk1 (still available and not 4K like the £1000 Mk2).

I've looked at reviews and it appears to be a super unit, c£1000K when first released, classed as a premium CSC - close enough in cost terms to DSLR cameras to make it quite a niche product - however, it's down to c£550 now.

It's been particulary praised for it's low light capability, due to it's large CMOS sensor and is notable for it's video capability.

A good stills camera too.

So, having started off looking at Camcorders, I've ended up with quite a curved ball, even in CSC circles, but I'm expecting good results :thumb:

I've added a directional mic to the bundle in the hope of improving the sound.

Thanks for all the advice guys - MBClub rocks :cool:.

Sony RX10 review
 
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Sounds like good timing on the price - the RX10 III has just come out, which would have been a factor.

The sensor in the RX10 is the same one used in the RX100 compact, which has always had excellent reviews. I have an RX100 II (IV is the latest version of that!) as my 'go everywhere' camera.
 
Yesterday I recorded 3 videos in Sony's XAVC-S format - which I understand is one better that their AVCHD, however when I've saved them to the computer and played them they are MP4 files :dk:.

I've checked and the format set on the camera is definitely XAVC-S, though it does have AVCHD and MP4 as options.

What am I doing wrong please?


Edit - I played them on Windows Media Player.
 
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Maybe windows media player doesn't support it as its a Sony format. It's not listed in my AVS video editor drop down list either so maybe you need to convert it first before it will play? :dk:
 
Yesterday I recorded 3 videos in Sony's XAVC-S format - which I understand is one better that their AVCHD, however when I've saved them to the computer and played them they are MP4 files :dk:.

I've checked and the format set on the camera is definitely XAVC-S, though it does have AVCHD and MP4 as options.

What am I doing wrong please?


Edit - I played them on Windows Media Player.

With video files the file extension usually denotes the wrapper - not the underlying codec/video encoding algorithm.

Excerpt from XAVC FAQs

What is XAVC S?

XAVC S is a subset format, using many of the superlative techniques and technologies used in XAVC, but intended for consumer products and workflows. It supports the 3840x2160 pixel version of 4K only, known as Quad Full HD, QFHD, UltraHDTV or UHDTV. XAVC S is a lighter codec with Long GOP compression and relatively small recorded file sizes. XAVC S also uses the .MP4 file wrapper for greater compatibility and suitability in consumer workflows.

So looks like your MP4 file contains the XAVC S format inside the MP4 wrapper. Best thing to do to be sure is to examine the file with an appropriate utility - not sure which as our studios are Mac based. But I think the above Sony QA should suffice.

For further background information check the links I posted on the previous page. Dpreview (and possibly others) will have plenty of info on wrappers and codecs.
 

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