Tesla outsells Mercedes Benz in the USA

[grober]

For a technology that seemingly has a future fraught with infrastructure difficulties , Mercedes appear to be sinking a lot of resources into producing EV's together with the other major German manufacturers? They can't be unaware of this lack of infrastructure problem surely in their future sales/business projections?

 

[Deleted member 6183]

Have you talked to cab drivers in London about the electric cab? Its a dire piece of rubbish. 80 miles at best then back to conventional fuel. Aside from the £80,000 price tag.

Next time that I wish to be misinformed I'll definitely be asking a taxi driver.

 

[Gollom]

Please could we not derail this interesting discussion with sarcasm? If you disagree, fine. Just put your counter argument. Thanks!!!

 

[c63chris]

For a technology that seemingly has a future fraught with infrastructure difficulties , Mercedes appear to be sinking a lot of resources into producing EV's together with the other major German manufacturers? They can't be unaware of this lack of infrastructure problem surely in their future sales/business projections?

I think your answer is in your own statement. yes why would they be investing so much in it? As per my other posts, there are millions being invested in hundreds of projects. Everything from giant batteries, operational at Leighton Buzzard and other sites, through to using the EVs to charge the gird. power in reverse. There is not a challenge here that does not already have a solution. The issue is on uptake ie how rapidly EVs are adopted. Best case the vehicles are power neutral as per the Tesla model and no changes are made. Worst case the demand profile changes on the network necessitating major changes. This is about timing. They are investing as they believe the time s now. By all accounts Tesla have a 8-10yr start on others so there's a lot of catching up to do. I imagine if we think back to the past to the early days of cars there were plenty of people arguing that they were not needed as the horse and cart was superior! Probably the same arguments being used on this forum

 

[rf065]

By all accounts Tesla have a 8-10yr start on others so there's a lot of catching up to do.

Not so sure, otherwise someone would have bought them for a price they could not refuse just to get the technology. Just like BMW bought Land Rover as a means to develop the X5 then sold it on once they had all the info they needed. Either the technology is freely available elsewhere or they're not as far ahead as they would have you believe.

 

[c63chris]

Not so sure, otherwise someone would have bought them for a price they could not refuse just to get the technology. Just like BMW bought Land Rover as a means to develop the X5 then sold it on once they had all the info they needed. Either the technology is freely available elsewhere or they're not as far ahead as they would have you believe.

Its widely reported in the motoring press so don't take my word for it. The main manufacturers largely did not see this as a growth market. Exception being Chevrolet with the volt but look how that market leader ahs been overtaken by tesla. Remember tesla is Elon Musk not a plc. The strategy here is not about cars its about batteries and the associated eco system hence developing his own batteries, powerwall chargers and solar roofs. Put them all together and the car just becomes part of your sustainable home energy system so of course he is not selling that. Where the other manufacturers are flat footed is by outsourcing car components they loose competitive advantage as, as you say, someone else can buy it. For example like the BMW 8 speed gearbox then go have a word with ZF.

 

[rf065]

The strategy here is not about cars its about batteries and the associated eco system hence developing his own batteries, powerwall chargers and solar roofs.

My opinion? Tesla cars are built like sh*t, they're getting sued by Walmart and Amazon as their solar panels on the roofs catch fire, it's all smoke and mirrors with Musk! It's all going to fall down at some stage.

 

[c63chris]

My opinion? Tesla cars are built like sh*t, they're getting sued by Walmart and Amazon as their solar panels on the roofs catch fire, it's all smoke and mirrors with Musk! It's all going to fall down at some stage.

To be honest your opinion doesn’t matter. Facts should be the debate here. Fact, the latest Which satisfaction survey has the Tesla Model S owner as being the most satisfied out of 409 models surveyed. I’m sure they will be gutted to here your opinion. Fact the Model 3 sold out as soon as it went on sale. Generating a 2yr waiting list. Major manufacturers would die for that. Can’t be “built like sh*t” to sell out like that? All new tech has its problems, Tesla are no different but then it’s easy to criticise. Whatever you opinion Tesla (Musk) have dramatically changed and advanced the EV products, markets and expectations. I’m sure it will fail eventually, all companies do and then others take their place.

 

[Bellow]

Not so sure, otherwise someone would have bought them for a price they could not refuse just to get the technology. Just like BMW bought Land Rover as a means to develop the X5 then sold it on once they had all the info they needed. Either the technology is freely available elsewhere or they're not as far ahead as they would have you believe.

OR - bought ARG for the small car production expertise it (BMW) lacked (for future FWD 1 and 2 Series with mini being released first) and then realised the wealth of LR tech that came attached, allowing it to develop the X5.
I think my version is more accurate.

 

[rf065]

To be honest your opinion doesn’t matter. Facts should be the debate here. Fact, the latest Which satisfaction survey has the Tesla Model S owner as being the most satisfied out of 409 models surveyed. I’m sure they will be gutted to here your opinion.

Fact, as well as coming in at number one in the satisfaction survey they came last (out of 409 models) in the reliability survey, is that sustainable? They don't even have an engine to go wrong, how badly are they built? I'm gutted for the owners!

 

[Bellow]

The Tesla car argument appears to be like choosing between a roughly finished electric light bulb or a beautifully made and finished Tilley lamp.
The argument for ''sure it belches out pollution that poisons lungs and heats up the planet, but look at the action on those cup holders'' is reaching the end of its shelf life.

More usefully IMO would be the debate as to how to make EVs fulfil their potential - ie, how the electricity required is generated and how the environmental impact of mining, processing, disposing of the necessary materials can best be dealt with. Thus far, those aspects are largely overlooked by the manufacturers of EVs (despite the fact that they will be the backbone of their model output) with an expectation that governments will step up and provide. An odd view point from a capitalist venture that usually want the state to step back, not forward.

 

[grober]

More usefully IMO would be the debate as to how to make EVs fulfil their potential - ie, how the electricity required is generated and how the environmental impact of mining, processing, disposing of the necessary materials can best be dealt with. Thus far, those aspects are largely overlooked by the manufacturers of EVs (despite the fact that they will be the backbone of their model output) with an expectation that governments will step up and provide.

While not disputing the willful ignoring of the environmental impact of electric vehicles by car manufacturers this is entirely consistent with their attitude to the environmental impact of IC cars also. Hell the 2 Gulf wars were about oil and there is a often a heavy environmental price to pay for oil --- Piper Alpha and Deepwater Horizon being 2 of many disasters. This did not deter them from continuing to churn out new IC models at the time??
Its often difficult to separate legitimate criticism of a manufacturer such as Tesla from anti EV bias mind! Here's a list of some problems experienced by Tesla owners.
25 Problems With Tesla Nobody Talks About
Aaaaand--- in the interests of balance let me just mention M272 timing chains/balancer shafts, OM651 piezo injectors , revised rhd GLC suspension uprights, NOx sensors and that Fire Opal Red paint that blistered in the sun.

 

[c63chris]

And now a car that charges itself. So much happening here so quickly.
A Dutch Startup Created 'The World's First Long-Range Solar Car'

 

[markjay]

I heard that Tesla developed a car that charges itself and drives itself. One day it disappeared from the lab and was never seen again.

 

[unimog]

As I tried saying earlier, this area is rapidly changing and thinking about it in the old way is not now how to make it work. As you say, fast chargers are currently very expensive but most don’t need them and prices will come down. Given your negativity towards most technology I’m not sure this will go anywhere but if you want an idea of the future then look at the new UPS depot in London. They have made the fleet electric but couldn’t make it pay by just taking more electricity from the network. The solution was to use renewables and storage on site. The same tech works at home. Is proven and working. Tesla is about batteries ultimately. We are quickly approaching the stage where a homeowner can effectively live off grid through using renewables and home storage. Again I don’t see why you persist using your bad marine experience to denigrate EVs and charging. Your argument would’ve scuppered the original petrol car as how could people have that technology thrown at them without refuelling and support technology being sorted!

Why is living in the real world and commenting on the reality considered negative these days? I didn't say I had a bad experience at all, that's your assumption. I pointed out that the reality of charging systems in real world operation and it is not the unicorn filled utopia that you espouse. And its a brash assumption to make that I'm negative to technology, given that I am paid to research, develop and maintain power plants as a Chief Engineer. I don't disagree with what you are saying and the concept for UPS depot in Camden is very noble, but exactly the things I'm saying are a problem are acknowledged in this article regarding it:

UPS to bolster London charging infrastructure with old electric vehicle batteries

That being the cost of SUBSIDY FREE infrastructure is too high for business. I don't believe EV technology should be subsidised because its not suitable for a broad application like its being peddled.

The old way of thinking, the fundamentals of supply and demand apply more now than before, and industry also sees it that way. Siemens no longer offer marine battery propulsion, we have already specified 8 PEM electrolysers for a new yacht project as they produce instantaneous voltage on demand which when coupled directly with a drive inverter require no storage batteries, thus charger and battery problems are eliminated, and produce a comparable stable output to a diesel prime mover. Flammable gas storage is even a none issue, given the amount of development in LNG transportation. Again, AIP is already a well developed and proven solution with none of the drawbacks and infrastructure challenges of EV's. (Got to crowbar the fuel cell into the debate!)

PEM Fuel Cell - Marine - Siemens

Granted you don't have a petrol station at your door currently, but where is the infrastructure for the storage batteries to mitigate 300kw of cyclic load PER CHARGER going to be placed should EV's become main stream? You are aware of the size of a cell bank to store that amount of charge? Who pays for on street charging points and what happens if there are not enough? I asked that idiot Monbiot the same question on twitter and he blocked me.... and its question that needs answering. You said its already happening now, and I counter that it isn't, because the cost is too high.

UPS are using little more than charge management software currently and there is nothing new or fancy in that. Feeding back into the grid from batteries in vehicles is a great idea, I counter that the infrastructure for this is too expensive, that amount of heavy cycling will shorten the battery life considerably, causing more waste and emissions in replacement. And the charging system will still be a net energy consumer.

I have solar in my current home, 12 panels hooked up to a Victron MPPT 5KVA converter and 6 x 200a/hr NMC Batteries (4kw continuous rated) full autonomy, considerably cheaper and generally a more superior product to a Powerwall, and with better warranty, one of the inverters overheated and burnt out during the summer last year and another again this year (its in the garage) but its been relatively trouble free. Even with my (miniscule) 5p/kwh feed in tariff the payback time is still 19+ years at 2017 prices when it was installed. I made that choice hoping to benefit from feed in tariffs, but how many people in the UK have the space for it and the best part of £18k up front? Its all well and good me being self sufficient, but the supermarket down the road doesn't have it so what then? If they do install it the cost of all the goods has to increase to absorb that cost. Renewables are not cheap, and there is certainly no 'free' energy.

It comes back to the point that in the UK we don't generate enough energy, green or not, to sustain an EV push and its ridiculous throwing all the eggs into that subsidised basket. And the general public doesn't want to have to pay for it, because largely they can't afford it.

 

[unimog]

More usefully IMO would be the debate as to how to make EVs fulfil their potential - ie, how the electricity required is generated and how the environmental impact of mining, processing, disposing of the necessary materials can best be dealt with. Thus far, those aspects are largely overlooked by the manufacturers of EVs (despite the fact that they will be the backbone of their model output) with an expectation that governments will step up and provide. An odd view point from a capitalist venture that usually want the state to step back, not forward.

That is exactly my point. EV's are just more of the same. Its moving the pollution on to someone or somewhere else, and expecting taxpayers to pony up for the infrastucture changes.

 

[c63chris]

Do you know what. Let’s look at these posts in 5 or 10 yrs time? It’s the easiest thing to criticise something new. Portugal went three weeks on renewables only this year and the uk has had days without coal. The first time since the industrial revolution yet we have the same negative posts here. Comes a point where you say let’s look at your posts in 5 yrs time. You will be embarrassed. The technology here is moving at a rate that this forum does not comprehend. By all means shoot the messenger.