Tesla outsells Mercedes Benz in the USA

[unimog]

Don't disagree with anything in the entire post but....



...not accurate to blame 'socialists and eco weenies'.
Governments of all colours have agreed on the targets. The motor manufacturers (for their own reasons though being caught cheating influences how vocal they can be) have chosen not to attempt building engines to meet EU7 regs when they appear. It is them - by offering EV only - that is forcing this on us.

Indeed, you are correct. I picked on that demographic as they are the most vocal and it appears bodies like the EU seem to listen to them more because of their incessant whining. I think all manufacturers are just after a piece of Tesla pie, but once that flash in the pan dies out its back to liquified gas or Hydrogen, as these can be burned easily in existing reciprocating engines and doesn't take a lot of infrastructure to increase take up.

The main fault from memory was door handles and the next gripe was the time taken to do the onsite repairs. I used to work in the electricity supply industry and it does make m smile when people say “the lights will go out”. Change is coming. The future is electric. Take up is increasing all the time. That said this forum is the most forward looking and embracing of new technology so shouldn’t be surprised.

As per my earlier post, if you worked in the supply industry then you will understand the need to match supply and demand and where this energy is going to come from and how do you/governments propose to balance the load demand? Sure, the UK currently uses less energy than it did 10 years ago, but a large number of stations have gone off line since then, and heavy industry no longer exists on a scale that can help balance demand at night. When demand exceeds supply capability lights will go out and its pretty arrogant to assume it wont, Ask the Saffers where that arrogance got them...

Forward thinking is about looking for problems before they occur. I work on a very expensive hybrid boat, and its completely pointless. We are not allowed to enter a port on electric power, which defeats the object of it, we still have to run the diesels. To the point where we have weighed up the cost of removing batteries and chargers and installing an LNG injection plant, which will allow the diesels to exceed EPA Tier 5/EU7 emissions standards. In the maritime industry the future is not electric, its DFDE. And these new IMO rules have just made all your imported food and fuel products significantly more expensive.

And being that this is a forum dedicated largely to Daimler Benz and their products, with all the automotive heritage that comes with their life's work it is an echo chamber here and its hardly going to be a place you are going to find a lot of love for electric cars and the soulless folk pushing them on everyone else, Tesla drivers have no friends. There is always Teslerati, I have never read such poor un-researched editorial content or comments from such a bunch of single minded fools, makes this forum look positively enlightened and open.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Mmm, how did this thread get so far without mentioning the real future of electric: Hydrogen fuel cells?

And, going back to the opening post, you don't have to have worked in the tech industry for very long to know that a one-off peak in sales is often down to discounting, and dumping manufacturer's stock into the supply chain.

A good quarter is "interesting," it's seldom proof of long-term sustainability. Remember your WANG computer, Compaq laptop, TIVO DVR, or Zune music player.

And then there's the profit issue - the firm continues to lose money at a rate of about a billion dollars a year

 

[c63chris]

Be prepared for the supermarkets to run out of food every time the HGV has to stop & charge the batteries!

Google what’s going on in Germany

 

[c63chris]

Indeed, you are correct. I picked on that demographic as they are the most vocal and it appears bodies like the EU seem to listen to them more because of their incessant whining. I think all manufacturers are just after a piece of Tesla pie, but once that flash in the pan dies out its back to liquified gas or Hydrogen, as these can be burned easily in existing reciprocating engines and doesn't take a lot of infrastructure to increase take up.



As per my earlier post, if you worked in the supply industry then you will understand the need to match supply and demand and where this energy is going to come from and how do you/governments propose to balance the load demand? Sure, the UK currently uses less energy than it did 10 years ago, but a large number of stations have gone off line since then, and heavy industry no longer exists on a scale that can help balance demand at night. When demand exceeds supply capability lights will go out and its pretty arrogant to assume it wont, Ask the Saffers where that arrogance got them...

Forward thinking is about looking for problems before they occur. I work on a very expensive hybrid boat, and its completely pointless. We are not allowed to enter a port on electric power, which defeats the object of it, we still have to run the diesels. To the point where we have weighed up the cost of removing batteries and chargers and installing an LNG injection plant, which will allow the diesels to exceed EPA Tier 5/EU7 emissions standards. In the maritime industry the future is not electric, its DFDE. And these new IMO rules have just made all your imported food and fuel products significantly more expensive.

And being that this is a forum dedicated largely to Daimler Benz and their products, with all the automotive heritage that comes with their life's work it is an echo chamber here and its hardly going to be a place you are going to find a lot of love for electric cars and the soulless folk pushing them on everyone else, Tesla drivers have no friends. There is always Teslerati, I have never read such poor un-researched editorial content or comments from such a bunch of single minded fools, makes this forum look positively enlightened and open.

There is a huge amount of work going on in this field. Right here. Right now. The way the electricity network operates is changing completely from how it started out. Distributed generation is here and working and makes a massive difference to the affects of charging on the network. I could go on but given your posts I don’t think you are really interested in this. Have a look at EV networks. Google is your friend. Just because you are having problems with your boat doesn’t mean we are all doomed!

 

[Bellow]

Indeed, you are correct. I picked on that demographic as they are the most vocal and it appears bodies like the EU seem to listen to them more because of their incessant whining. I think all manufacturers are just after a piece of Tesla pie, but once that flash in the pan dies out its back to liquified gas or Hydrogen, as these can be burned easily in existing reciprocating engines and doesn't take a lot of infrastructure to increase take up.

Actually, no. Or yes, in the case of hydrogen as being incredibly prone to pre-ignition, it burns a little to readily for today's highly thermally stressed IC engines.

 

[Bellow]

Diesel at least, will be around for a long time yet. Not least for all the, HGV's, vans etc. I havnt seen or heard of any electric HGV thats viable for haulage.

Here's one they made earlier.

 

[markjay]

Diesel at least, will be around for a long time yet. Not least for all the, HGV's, vans etc. I havnt seen or heard of any electric HGV thats viable for haulage.

Recently I had the need to negotiate with insurers the value of Mrs MJ's written-off Diesel car...... and what I have learnt from the exercise is that - with the exception of the South East - the market for pre-Euro-6 Diesel cars is still very strong all over the UK.

More specifically, I managed to secure a much bettet payout than I would have received from a local sale here in London, simply by comparing with asking prices for similar cars advertised for private sale in... Scotland.

So demand for Diesel cars among consumers isn't going to die-out any time soon. However, I suspect that at some point car manufacturers will simply stop producing private Diesel cars for the European markets.

 

[Bellow]

So demand for Diesel cars among consumers isn't going to die-out any time soon. However, I suspect that at some point car manufacturers will simply stop producing private Diesel cars for the European markets.

They already have in the smaller segments and as Europe was the predominantly diesel market the small diesel is dead. The trend is merely creeping up the size scale.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

...........
So demand for Diesel cars among consumers isn't going to die-out any time soon. However, I suspect that at some point car manufacturers will simply stop producing private Diesel cars for the European markets.

Agree with your point about regional demand outside London and, maybe Manchester, but the thing that's going to drive manufacturers to drop their European Diesels is the same thing that brought diesels into popularity in Europe: EU and National Government support and fuel pricing.

With the Green lobbying, it's easy to imagine that the UK and all the other (cough) EU countries may soon change the balance of fuel taxes back in favour of petrol.


.

 

[unimog]

There is a huge amount of work going on in this field. Right here. Right now. The way the electricity network operates is changing completely from how it started out. Distributed generation is here and working and makes a massive difference to the affects of charging on the network. I could go on but given your posts I don’t think you are really interested in this. Have a look at EV networks. Google is your friend. Just because you are having problems with your boat doesn’t mean we are all doomed!

I didn't say we are doomed, I said it's cretinous to throw technologies at people without working out problems first. And I would not say google is a friend, the same contemptible fools peddling EV take up are one and the same writing these articles. I'm interested in the future of energy, but not the future as written by fonts of technical wisdom such as George Monbiot and his ilk who are intent on sending us all back to the dark ages.

And I do understand what you mean about distribution changes in the last 10 years and what is coming in the future, but it doesn't exist currently on a scale to support large scale EV uptake in the UK, and no authorities have enough money nor investment to make it a reality. Google is full of stories about battery storage tech which I'm fully aware of, but nobody answers any questions about battery life cycle and disposal. I have had failed batteries and the state of Florida charged us a horrendous amount of money to dispose of them. As I stated in an earlier post, its ridiculous to keep pushing this idea without studying the further implications, I don't see it as being more sustainable because part of the cost and waste products is being pushed elsewhere. Ford announced only this week that autonomous EV's will only last 4 years due to increased usage... is that really, I mean really sustainable? I was involved in the development of this vessel and what we have found in the 9 years since the project began is that electro storage hybrid technology is largely horseshit, 90% of our systems were not market ready at uptake (and are still not), and the plant is supplied by Siemens and ABB, the largest players in the sector. It works, but not well enough to justify the cost.

EV Networks, fair enough, sound eco sourced energy, exactly what it should be and if properly certified this is truely worthy of the 'zero emission' moniker'. But with only 24 sites and all look like out of town supermarkets, it seems like a bit of a vapourware company, I would like to see the cost base of say putting chargers on the street in Knightsbridge, or even Manchester city centre. Have you any idea how much these chargers cost per unit? I have four ABB 350kw fast chargers and they are still about 280000-300000 euros each with incentives and discounts, plus we have to pay ABB a service contract (on top of the Siemens battery management contract) of another eye watering amount for them. All of the chargers have had issues which brings utilisation rate to below 60%, payback was calculated at around 83% utilisation in the first 5 years. Its not reliable in the real world from personal experience.

 

[unimog]

Actually, no. Or yes, in the case of hydrogen as being incredibly prone to pre-ignition, it burns a little to readily for today's highly thermally stressed IC engines.

Ford were pretty successful at H2ICE development, but I think at the time of the program the cost per unit was still too high to be viable. Membrane style fuel cells are the way forward, high energy density, relativly easy to produce with little environmental impact, no moving parts and therefore no weight penalty.

 

[c63chris]

I didn't say we are doomed, I said it's cretinous to throw technologies at people without working out problems first. And I would not say google is a friend, the same contemptible fools peddling EV take up are one and the same writing these articles. I'm interested in the future of energy, but not the future as written by fonts of technical wisdom such as George Monbiot and his ilk who are intent on sending us all back to the dark ages.

And I do understand what you mean about distribution changes in the last 10 years and what is coming in the future, but it doesn't exist currently on a scale to support large scale EV uptake in the UK, and no authorities have enough money nor investment to make it a reality. Google is full of stories about battery storage tech which I'm fully aware of, but nobody answers any questions about battery life cycle and disposal. I have had failed batteries and the state of Florida charged us a horrendous amount of money to dispose of them. As I stated in an earlier post, its ridiculous to keep pushing this idea without studying the further implications, I don't see it as being more sustainable because part of the cost and waste products is being pushed elsewhere. Ford announced only this week that autonomous EV's will only last 4 years due to increased usage... is that really, I mean really sustainable? I was involved in the development of this vessel and what we have found in the 9 years since the project began is that electro storage hybrid technology is largely horseshit, 90% of our systems were not market ready at uptake (and are still not), and the plant is supplied by Siemens and ABB, the largest players in the sector. It works, but not well enough to justify the cost.

EV Networks, fair enough, sound eco sourced energy, exactly what it should be and if properly certified this is truely worthy of the 'zero emission' moniker'. But with only 24 sites and all look like out of town supermarkets, it seems like a bit of a vapourware company, I would like to see the cost base of say putting chargers on the street in Knightsbridge, or even Manchester city centre. Have you any idea how much these chargers cost per unit? I have four ABB 350kw fast chargers and they are still about 280000-300000 euros each with incentives and discounts, plus we have to pay ABB a service contract (on top of the Siemens battery management contract) of another eye watering amount for them. All of the chargers have had issues which brings utilisation rate to below 60%, payback was calculated at around 83% utilisation in the first 5 years. Its not reliable in the real world from personal experience.

As I tried saying earlier, this area is rapidly changing and thinking about it in the old way is not now how to make it work. As you say, fast chargers are currently very expensive but most don’t need them and prices will come down. Given your negativity towards most technology I’m not sure this will go anywhere but if you want an idea of the future then look at the new UPS depot in London. They have made the fleet electric but couldn’t make it pay by just taking more electricity from the network. The solution was to use renewables and storage on site. The same tech works at home. Is proven and working. Tesla is about batteries ultimately. We are quickly approaching the stage where a homeowner can effectively live off grid through using renewables and home storage. Again I don’t see why you persist using your bad marine experience to denigrate EVs and charging. Your argument would’ve scuppered the original petrol car as how could people have that technology thrown at them without refuelling and support technology being sorted!

 

[Gollom]

Loving this discussion/debate and am learning lots!

 

[Alfie]

Tesla trucks being made now and even tankers

I repeat; 'I havnt seen or heard of any electric HGV thats viable for haulage.'

In any event the time constraints on drivers hours will remain for electric vehicles. Still, I suppose itll be easier for the drivers as they have to stop and recharge every couple of hours anyway. I do hope they build in some artifical road noise as a near silent HGV coming along the road is a worrying thought. Ive nearly been hit twice by an electric vehicle that was stationary when viewed and then moved off after I started crossing the road!

Indeed trains are a great idea to get freight moving around the country again. Gets HGV's off the roads.

 

[c63chris]

I repeat; 'I havnt seen or heard of any electric HGV thats viable for haulage.'

In any event the time constraints on drivers hours will remain for electric vehicles. Still, I suppose itll be easier for the drivers as they have to stop and recharge every couple of hours anyway. I do hope they build in some artifical road noise as a near silent HGV coming along the road is a worrying thought. Ive nearly been hit twice by an electric vehicle that was stationary when viewed and then moved off after I started crossing the road!

Indeed trains are a great idea to get freight moving around the country again. Gets HGV's off the roads.

Just because you haven't seen or heard it doesn't mean it is not happening. Just one article from today's news

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...tric-vehicle&usg=AOvVaw00WYZNpyVqQeZmoCU_naVc

I'm sure you don't really think vehicles need charging every 2hrs. have a look at the latest range figures. Up there with cars now.

 

[moonloops]

I've nearly been hit twice by an electric vehicle that was stationary when viewed and then moved off after I started crossing the road!

Maybe a change in law to have a man blowing a whistle and waving a flag in front of all EV's on startup

 

[Alfie]

Just because you haven't seen or heard it doesn't mean it is not happening. Just one article from today's news

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwir-ObLnqXkAhXgShUIHWGeCfMQFjAAegQIABAB&url=https://www.fastcompany.com/90297201/in-shanghai-every-ikea-delivery-is-now-made-with-an-electric-vehicle&usg=AOvVaw00WYZNpyVqQeZmoCU_naVc

I'm sure you don't really think vehicles need charging every 2hrs. have a look at the latest range figures. Up there with cars now.

I do read the motoring press. Have you seen an EV HGV on the road then? I read the article you linked to. The vehicles are not HGV's at all. LGV's at best and the deliveries are all in Shanghai. Very much a stop start city if ever there was one! Please show me an EV HGV thats viable.

As for range - your claims are optimistic. I get around 800 miles from a tank in the W205 diesel. That takes about four minutes to refill. From what I hear from Tesla owners they dont get the 300 mile claim. Things like the Leaf are sometimes good for 90 miles. My little smart car will do way more than that!

 

[c63chris]

I do read the motoring press. Have you seen an EV HGV on the road then?

As for range - your claims are optimistic. I get around 800 miles from a tank in the W205 diesel. That takes about four minutes to refill. From what I hear from Tesla owners they dont get the 300 mile claim. Things like the Leaf are sometimes good for 90 miles. My little smart car will do way more than that!

Go into London and you will see electric busses and as per my earlier post UPS fleet is now electric. The Leaf has now got over 300 miles range which is the same as most cars of that size. A fast charger will give 80% charge in 15mins or less and that is getting quicker with each new release. It is really poor science to base your conclusion based solely on what you have seen and known. In Germany they have electric HGVs and are now trialling overhead power line so the lorries can charge while still moving. This is an exciting and fast moving sphere. The only question we should be asking as how quickly this will all happen.

 

[Alfie]

Go into London and you will see electric busses and as per my earlier post UPS fleet is now electric. The Leaf has now got over 300 miles range which is the same as most cars of that size. A fast charger will give 80% charge in 15mins or less and that is getting quicker with each new release. It is really poor science to base your conclusion based solely on what you have seen and known. In Germany they have electric HGVs and are now trialling overhead power line so the lorries can charge while still moving. This is an exciting and fast moving sphere. The only question we should be asking as how quickly this will all happen.

Have you talked to cab drivers in London about the electric cab? Its a dire piece of rubbish. 80 miles at best then back to conventional fuel. Aside from the £80,000 price tag.

 

[c63chris]

Have you talked to cab drivers in London about the electric cab? Its a dire piece of rubbish. 80 miles at best then back to conventional fuel. Aside from the £80,000 price tag.

That's a hybrid? We were talking electric vehicles? Battery tech like everything in life varies hugely from manufacturer to another. Part of the reason Tesla make their own. As per my previous reply. There are many many successful implementations happening right now. We have already passed the point of more charging points than petrol stations. Of course there are issues especially with new products. It has always been so. Each new one is better than the last. Just look how range has increased. The latest Which survey has Tesla owners being amongst the most satisfied so I doubt they are finding the range 'dire'. I looked looked into this at my last job and we went through all these tired old arguments before taking some EV vans on trial. The guys loved them and are now in daily use.