The Automated and Electric vehicles act 2018!

[grober]

The Treasury stands to lose tens of billions in fuel duty when the ban on new ICE cars comes in 2030 but the car industry is eyeing with suspicion the above act in the title - some of which came into force in April this year. It dictates that it is now illegal to sell a car charging point that cannot send and receive data { via the mobile phone network presumably}. This means it would contain a unique identifier chip like an electricity smart meter. While this could facilitate an EV to feed its battery energy back into the grid to the owners advantage it would also permit the electricity company to monitor the proportion of a domestic user's electricity supply being used to charge a vehicle thus permitting a selective/ differential/ greater tax rate to be applied to that particular proportion of electrical energy supplied rather than the current domestic blanket tax rate! The Treasury has stated it's not looking to tax EV electricity that way, but the fact remains the facility to do so will exist in the future!​

​

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2018/18/pdfs/ukpgaen_20180018_en.pdf​

section 14​

​

 

[Bellow]

If there is insufficient mobile coverage such that the charger cannot send and receive data - does that outlaw a charger there?

 

[grober]

If there is insufficient mobile coverage such that the charger cannot send and receive data - does that outlaw a charger there?

Possibly why Shell Energy would not supply Boyband with a charger facility don't know? MAYBE at present its enough any charger has the facility built in- operational or not in any area . If I remember correctly there was a tremendous hu ha with alarm companies when the 2G communications network was shut down with scant notice as most of their remote alarm monitoring systems used that network.

Sunsetting 2G and 3G network

The 2G and 3G networks are being shut down across Europe. Make sure your security and alarm systems are up to date and will keep functioning.

www.addsecure.com

 

[ChipChop]

If there is insufficient mobile coverage such that the charger cannot send and receive data - does that outlaw a charger there?

This is where Elon Musks Starlink satellite based internet comes in.

If you can afford an EV you can afford a satellite internet connection. Maybe he will do a package deal in the future.

Starlink

High-speed internet. Available almost anywhere on Earth.

www.starlink.com

Starlink - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[markjay]

Not directly related, but some utility companies were experimenting at the time with a system where the electricity meters send data back to the energy provider via the grid. There were also suggestions that Internet could be provided to homes via the grid (data modulated over power cables, in a similar way to how Ethernet-over-Power aka Home Link works). I am guessing that when 3g was introduced it rendered these systems pointless.

 

[markjay]

If you can afford an EV you can afford a satellite internet connection. Maybe he will do a package deal in the future.

You meant to say Tesla, not EVs in general? Some EVs are quite affordable, both new and (even more so) second hand.

 

[markjay]

As for differential electricity charging.... if you have a charging point at home, this means you have a drive or a garage, and so there's nothing stopping you from running an extension cord from your living room to the garage or drive, and slow-charge the car overnight instead of fast-charging it in 4 hours. The charging point will be kept for emergency use when quick-charging is needed.... in short, the higher the tax, the more people will be willing to come up with elaborate schemes to avoid it (economy 101 ).

 

[ChipChop]

Some EVs are quite affordable, both new and (even more so) second hand.

Are they affordable?

Feel free to point out EV's that represent value for money bearing in mind 'engine' battery life means a limited product life and at some point catastrophic depreciation.

I will give you a starter for ten with the Chinese battery powered tat known as MG. Good battery or cheap battery?

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www.autotrader.co.uk

 

[markjay]

Are they affordable?

Feel free to point out EV's that represent value for money bearing in mind 'engine' battery life means a limited product life and at some point catastrophic depreciation.

I will give you a starter for ten with the Chinese battery powered tat known as MG. Good battery or cheap battery?

Auto Trader UK - New and Used Cars For Sale

Find your next car with Auto Trader UK, the official #1 site to buy and sell new and used cars. Over 400,000 cars online. Simple, easy, quick!

www.autotrader.co.uk

It's simply a question of range and usage profile. The Nissan Leaf is quite affordable second-hand, and also very practical if your daily commute is under 10 miles each way, and you have a charging point at home or on the road you live in, where it can be charged overnight.

As for new cars, city EVs start from £150-£200 per month (inc VAT) on private lease. Not particularly cheap, perhaps, but not exactly unaffordable either.

Of course for those needing a car that can comfortably do a 200 miles motorway journey, there are currently no cheaper alternatives than a frugal Diesel. But even so, prices for a new ID.3 with a 200+ miles nominal range start at £30k.... not the 'car for each worker' that Volkswagen was originally meant to be, granted, but not the preserve of the elite either.

So yes, I would say that many people will find an affordable EV that meets their needs. Not everyone, not just yet anyway, but 'many', and soon it will 'most'.

 

[grober]

As for differential electricity charging.... if you have a charging point at home, this means you have a drive or a garage, and so there's nothing stopping you from running an extension cord from your living room to the garage or drive, and slow-charge the car overnight instead of fast-charging it in 4 hours. The charging point will be kept for emergency use when quick-charging is needed.... in short, the higher the tax, the more people will be willing to come up with elaborate schemes to avoid it (economy 101 ).

Of course there will be ways around this for the ingenious owner but future governments may take EV tax evasion quite seriously. In the future I can see the purchase of intelligent chargers being a legal requirement for DOMESTIC EV purchase for example.
Installed chargers may require to establish RF network links on power up or they won't supply power. Electricity companies may monitor domestic usage overnight and if they suspect illict charging may simply charge the higher rate for all domestic usage untill proven otherwise. Penalties could be severe-EV vehicle confiscation for example. This is all purely hypothetical of course and other methods of EV taxation such as road use are potentially available.

 

[m80]

Seems more sensible to monitor the cars charge input.
At home,
at work,
on a lamp post......

 

[markjay]

Seems more sensible to monitor the cars charge input.
At home,
at work,
on a lamp post......

Good point. So it's the car that will need to be connected over 4g/5g.... not the charger?

 

[m80]

Good point. So it's the car that will need to be connected over 4g/5g.... not the charger?

I haven't looked at the legislation, but I reckon I can learn about it here eventually.

My thoughts are that just maybe the Gov't statement that this isn't for subversive tax purposes may actually be true.
We would need to understand what info can be transmitted and then what might possibly be controlled remotely. Although I haven't heard mention it could be useful to switch chargers a times of low demand.
But then realistically the operator should have override facility or they might come out early to a partially charged EV.

For future taxation I see all charge input needs be monitored. As much as I'm not into the EV principle for our future it would be as fair as is possible.
The more you drive, the heavier the loading on the EV, the more tax you pay. That's about as close to only taxing fuel at the pump could get, that is no more disproportionate charging by annual road tax.
But simple doesn't work for the Chancellor so it will continue to be complex and w/o fair application, when they do sort out a form (or forms) of EV taxation.

In my v cynical and not so humble opinion.

 

[Bellow]

Of course for those needing a car that can comfortably do a 200 miles motorway journey, there are currently no cheaper alternatives than a frugal Diesel. But even so, prices for a new ID.3 with a 200+ miles nominal range start at £30k.... not the 'car for each worker' that Volkswagen was originally meant to be, granted, but not the preserve of the elite either.

So yes, I would say that many people will find an affordable EV that meets their needs. Not everyone, not just yet anyway, but 'many', and soon it will 'most'.

We don't know what the costs will be. We are aware of purchasing and leasing costs and we have seen the electricity costs for charging as they currently are but we don't know if taxation will be applied or not.

Looking at Guy Martins 1100 mile road trip which cost him £205 in on-road re-charging, how much taxation can on-road pricing withstand and still be deemed affordable? That trip GM took would have cost £140 in a diesel and shockingly, with LPG at 52.7p / litre my 13mpg truck could have completed that trip for the same cost as the EV. Only because LPG is cheap you say. Yes, but it it still attracts tax where the electricity used by GM did not (beyond a paltry 5% VAT - if that even). At a guess, the easiest way to remedy such discrepancies is to ramp up the cost of fossil fuels - which is really going to hammer those who cannot afford an EV - purchase or lease.

 

[markjay]

We don't know what the costs will be. We are aware of purchasing and leasing costs and we have seen the electricity costs for charging as they currently are but we don't know if taxation will be applied or not.

Looking at Guy Martins 1100 mile road trip which cost him £205 in on-road re-charging, how much taxation can on-road pricing withstand and still be deemed affordable? That trip GM took would have cost £140 in a diesel and shockingly, with LPG at 52.7p / litre my 13mpg truck could have completed that trip for the same cost as the EV. Only because LPG is cheap you say. Yes, but it it still attracts tax where the electricity used by GM did not (beyond a paltry 5% VAT - if that even). At a guess, the easiest way to remedy such discrepancies is to ramp up the cost of fossil fuels - which is really going to hammer those who cannot afford an EV - purchase or lease.

In 1995 petrol was 49.95p.

In 2000 it went up to 80p, there were demonstrations and blockades on oil refineries.

In 2021, petrol is 1.30+ and everyone seems to be able to afford it. Aabout 80% of it is tax, BTW.

EVs? Eventually everyone will have one, and we'll all manage. My view.

 

[markjay]

I haven't looked at the legislation, but I reckon I can learn about it here eventually.

My thoughts are that just maybe the Gov't statement that this isn't for subversive tax purposes may actually be true.
We would need to understand what info can be transmitted and then what might possibly be controlled remotely. Although I haven't heard mention it could be useful to switch chargers a times of low demand.
But then realistically the operator should have override facility or they might come out early to a partially charged EV.

For future taxation I see all charge input needs be monitored. As much as I'm not into the EV principle for our future it would be as fair as is possible.
The more you drive, the heavier the loading on the EV, the more tax you pay. That's about as close to only taxing fuel at the pump could get, that is no more disproportionate charging by annual road tax.
But simple doesn't work for the Chancellor so it will continue to be complex and w/o fair application, when they do sort out a form (or forms) of EV taxation.

In my v cynical and not so humble opinion.

The other issue with pay-per-useage is that it is not really compatible with current social thinking in the UK. The next step could be applying it to the NHS... another highly controversial issue. Then there's education... etc.

 

[Bellow]

In 1995 petrol was 49.95p.

In 2000 it went up to 80p, there were demonstrations and blockades on oil refineries.

In 2021, petrol is 1.30+ and everyone seems to be able to afford it. Aabout 80% of it is tax, BTW.

Grudgingly. You've seen the threads - and on a Mercedes forum too.

EVs? Eventually everyone will have one, and we'll all manage. My view.

When we're all over a barrel that aint an oil barrel.....

 

[markjay]

Grudgingly. You've seen the threads - and on a Mercedes forum too.

When we're all over a barrel that aint an oil barrel.....

Coronavirus aside, UK motorists seem to be doing just fine in spite of the constant hike in fuel prices:

Grudgingly? Probably... similar to how many feel about paying taxes in general, not to mention duty on alcohol and tobacco. Taxation isn't meant to be a pleasurable experience, just a tolerable one.

 

[Bellow]

Grudgingly? Probably... similar to how many feel about paying taxes in general, not to mention duty on alcohol and tobacco. Taxation isn't meant to be a pleasurable experience, just a tolerable one.

Brave - mentioning the T word.....

 

[m80]

Taxes are fine if we can see by comparison that we're getting some value.

I went to Russia a few times in the early 2000's. Their tax was 10%, about half of ours. It sounded good until I returned and could recognise that we had street lighting, well maintained roads, a police force we could rely on in the main, and a health service that inspired confidence.

20 years on and it seems half the street lights are extinguished to save energy, our roads feel like theirs but 2nd hand from them, our police prioritise calls and tell callers off for what is perceived to be low priority (so sit waiting an age for a 101 response), and if prioritised the police might get round to you sometime. Our health service has been questionable long before covid got the blame for our situation.
Of course there is more to cite as examples of failure.

What are our taxes paying for?
Who is enjoying the benefit of those taxes?
Do many actually believe that our country is destined to improve as a benefit of the extra taxes that we 'will' be paying?