The Beginnings of Common Sense Rising from the Gloom?

Big Janner

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Has anyone noticed this?
BMW are wanting to mass produce hydrogen cell cars and are putting their money where their mouth is;



From my point of view, it's been a long time coming, we need a mass producer of vehicles to speak up for hydrogen, either the cell, or, hydrogen engines
 

Bobby Dazzler

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Hydrogen has been a very long time coming, albeit maybe not more than a century like EVs. However like EVs, hydrogen powered vehicles also have a whole series of constraints - some are common like production capacity and availability of supporting infrastructure for use at scale, and some are unique like the end-to-end inefficiency - but the fact that BEVs are appearing on the road thick and fast suggests that the constraints associated with Hydrogen are more significant at this time.
 
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Big Janner

Big Janner

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Hydrogen has been a very long time coming, albeit maybe not more than a century like EVs. However like EVs, hydrogen powered vehicles also have a whole series of constraints - some are common like production capacity and availability of supporting infrastructure for use at scale, and some are unique like the end-to-end inefficiency - but the fact that BEVs are appearing on the road thick and fast suggests that the constraints associated with Hydrogen are more significant at this time.

My understanding is that there are 2 primary barriers quoted regarding hydrogen;
Cost; it's expensive and power hungry to produce at scale
My thoughts are that where there's a will, there's a way.
If the same sort of money is put into HV and infrastructure development as has been done for EV's, then this can be overcome.

Hydrogen storage on board vehicles; contsiners will be heavy and expensive.
My thoughts;
We can make contsiners that hold LPG safely
We can make contsiners for nuclear waste that will survive a 40mph train crash
Somewhere between the 2 is a container for hydrogen
Volume will stoke interest and reduce cost.

Lets face it, the current ICE designs are well suited to become hydrogen engines.
It will need some work, but, they are there for the making

Bulk storage underground shouldn't be an issue . . . .we store all sorts there, hydrogen will be just another one.
 

CoopsSA

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It's been well documented that overall hydrogen isn't as efficient as electricity for cars, due to the conversion process.

For electric, cars are about 70-80% efficient - about 8% of the efficiency is lost during transport for before storage in the batteries. Another 18% lost when the energy is used to drive the motors. But for hydrogen 45% of the energy is lost in production of hydrogen through electrolysis. Of the remaining 55%, another 55% is lost when the hydrogen is converted into electricity in the car.

This picture shows the steps for both.

Website_Wasserstoff_vs_Batterie_Vergleich_EN_1163.png

I do think that there is a place for hydrogen especially in people and heavy goods transport.
 

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Wont ever happen without masses of spare renewable energy being available. As said above...hydrogen takes huge amounts of energy and would produce more carbon that it saves without being made from a renewable source. Not to mention their has already been way too much money invested in EV infrastructure....no going back now. Hydrogen is also pretty dangerous stuff to store...much more explosive than petrol.
 

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From my point of view, it's been a long time coming, we need a mass producer of vehicles to speak up for hydrogen, either the cell, or, hydrogen engines

??

Toyota have sold a hydrogen fuel cell car (the Mirai) for over 7 years!

 

CoopsSA

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??

Toyota have sold a hydrogen fuel cell car (the Mirai) for over 7 years!


Toyota are a mass producer of cars, yes 🤣

Just that the demand for hydrogen isn't there because the concept is unproven and infrastructure is poor - 14 sites in UK to fill up. Government estimated that there'd be 65 stations by 2020, clearly it isn't being pushed as an alternative.

In terms of cost to re-fill, lifted this from the web (although does need some updating to match current costs)

In the UK, hydrogen fuel costs between £10 and £15 per kg (it’s measured in kilogrammes rather than litres). That means filling a Hyundai Nexo’s 6.33kg tank, which offers around 414 miles of range will cost anywhere between £63 and £95 pounds. With consumption of 0.95kg per 100km (62miles) that means the Nexo will cost around £11.40 to cover 100km (at a cost of £12 per kg). An equivalent diesel with economy of 55mpg (5.1l/100km) will cost around £6.72 to cover the same distance. Charging a BEV such as the Hyundai Kona, which requires 19.4kWh per 100km, will cost around £2.79 at the average UK household electricity rate of 14.4 per kWh.
 

mattc

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Germany is going hell for leather for hydrogen fuel cell technology as part of the energy solution. The intensity of effort since February has been exponential with more to come. As others have alluded to to create 'green' hydrogen as it's termed means more green energy (electricity) required to generate it.

Ultimately it will only be part of the solution, not a new panacea in its own right
 

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My understanding is that there are 2 primary barriers quoted regarding hydrogen;
Cost; it's expensive and power hungry to produce at scale
My thoughts are that where there's a will, there's a way.
If the same sort of money is put into HV and infrastructure development as has been done for EV's, then this can be overcome.
With a surplus of cleanly generated electricity hydrogen is viable. Storing it is difficult. Continuous use is at odds with surplus electricity.

Hydrogen storage on board vehicles; contsiners will be heavy and expensive.
My thoughts;
We can make contsiners that hold LPG safely
We can make contsiners for nuclear waste that will survive a 40mph train crash
Somewhere between the 2 is a container for hydrogen
Volume will stoke interest and reduce cost.
LPG is stored at typically 4-6 bar and tank weights are circa 0.5kg/1.0kg LPG stored.
Industrial hydrogen bottles store at 175 bar and weigh 100kg/1.0kg hydrogen stored.
Toyota Mirai tanks contain hydrogen at 700 bar and are circa 20kg/1.0kg hydrogen stored. The 5kg of hydrogen a Mirai carries is in a 100kg carbon fibre tank - the cost of which is not disclosed but Autocar reckon the Mirai is subsidised to the tune of £15-20k.
To compress hydrogen to pressures such that tank storage is at least possible consumes huge amounts of energy. One third of hydrogen's energy is devoted to that alone - and that is an old figure from before Toyota went to 700 bar.
700 bar is 10,290 psi. That is 4.6 tons of force acting on each and every square inch of a tank's internal surface.


Lets face it, the current ICE designs are well suited to become hydrogen engines.
It will need some work, but, they are there for the making
They aren't.
Hydrogen combustion is very very fast - exceeding acceptable limits of pressure rise/degrees of crankshaft rotation.
Hydrogen finds it way into the crankcase too readily creating an explosive hazard. The required levels of crankcase ventilation are such that you'd do better to start with a crankcase scavenged 2-stroke.
Inlet backfires and ignition of the incoming charge are significant explosive risks. Direct injection would be circumvent those risks but there is no viable injector capable of handling vapour phase (which it must be because hydrogen cannot be liquefied without its temperature being reduced to close to absolute zero (minus 273C)) and combustion pressure and temperature.
ICE thermal efficiency isn't good enough given the storage problem of hydrogen. The improved efficiency of a fuel cell is required for acceptable range/minimised tank capacity. Fuel cells come with their own problems - not least their need for large quantities of platinum.
Bulk storage underground shouldn't be an issue . . . .we store all sorts there, hydrogen will be just another one.
Hydrogen molecules are so small they'd likely disappear never to be seen again. It's very wide flammability range would require any proposed storage volume be devoid of air before introducing hydrogen - or accept a huge explosion risk.
 

Bobby Dazzler

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Hydrogen may well have a place - especially for HGVs - however for use on very large scale passenger car, the BEV is likely to be a better option.

Producing hydrogen for automotive use at scale will require continued and greater investment in renewable energy and so we might as well do the same for BEVs.

We also have a very mature network for distributing electricity and practical sources of local generation (eg solar, wind) so it has a big head start over hydrogen.
 

Bobby Dazzler

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My understanding is that there are 2 primary barriers quoted regarding hydrogen;
Cost; it's expensive and power hungry to produce at scale
My thoughts are that where there's a will, there's a way.
If the same sort of money is put into HV and infrastructure development as has been done for EV's, then this can be overcome.

Hydrogen storage on board vehicles; contsiners will be heavy and expensive.
My thoughts;
We can make contsiners that hold LPG safely
We can make contsiners for nuclear waste that will survive a 40mph train crash
Somewhere between the 2 is a container for hydrogen
Volume will stoke interest and reduce cost.

Lets face it, the current ICE designs are well suited to become hydrogen engines.
It will need some work, but, they are there for the making

Bulk storage underground shouldn't be an issue . . . .we store all sorts there, hydrogen will be just another one.
Nothing is possible but right now the constraints of hydrogen outweigh the constraints of electricity for passenger car propulsion.
 

SL63Mark

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With a surplus of cleanly generated electricity hydrogen is viable. Storing it is difficult. Continuous use is at odds with surplus electricity.


LPG is stored at typically 4-6 bar and tank weights are circa 0.5kg/1.0kg LPG stored.
Industrial hydrogen bottles store at 175 bar and weigh 100kg/1.0kg hydrogen stored.
Toyota Mirai tanks contain hydrogen at 700 bar and are circa 20kg/1.0kg hydrogen stored. The 5kg of hydrogen a Mirai carries is in a 100kg carbon fibre tank - the cost of which is not disclosed but Autocar reckon the Mirai is subsidised to the tune of £15-20k.
To compress hydrogen to pressures such that tank storage is at least possible consumes huge amounts of energy. One third of hydrogen's energy is devoted to that alone - and that is an old figure from before Toyota went to 700 bar.
700 bar is 10,290 psi. That is 4.6 tons of force acting on each and every square inch of a tank's internal surface.



They aren't.
Hydrogen combustion is very very fast - exceeding acceptable limits of pressure rise/degrees of crankshaft rotation.
Hydrogen finds it way into the crankcase too readily creating an explosive hazard. The required levels of crankcase ventilation are such that you'd do better to start with a crankcase scavenged 2-stroke.
Inlet backfires and ignition of the incoming charge are significant explosive risks. Direct injection would be circumvent those risks but there is no viable injector capable of handling vapour phase (which it must be because hydrogen cannot be liquefied without its temperature being reduced to close to absolute zero (minus 273C)) and combustion pressure and temperature.
ICE thermal efficiency isn't good enough given the storage problem of hydrogen. The improved efficiency of a fuel cell is required for acceptable range/minimised tank capacity. Fuel cells come with their own problems - not least their need for large quantities of platinum.

Hydrogen molecules are so small they'd likely disappear never to be seen again. It's very wide flammability range would require any proposed storage volume be devoid of air before introducing hydrogen - or accept a huge explosion risk.

Well, it can't be that difficult, remember the Hindenburg ? That used Hydrogen. Oh wait ... :(
 

Steveml63

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Hi,
I am working on a number of hydrogen projects right now - including hydrogen buses, hydrogen cars, hydrogen production technologies and hydrogen storage technologies.
For trucks & buses hydrogen fuel cells make good sense - so much quicker to refill than battery charging and good range.
Regular hydrogen electrolysis uses around 50kw of electricity to produce 1kg of hydrogen - so this is very expensive.
We are working with a company that can produce it for a tenth of this amount of electricity - this is far more economical at this rate.
Rather than storing hydrogen in high pressure tanks on vehicles - there are a good number of emerging technologies that produce the hydrogen on demand - so no need to store it.
Hydrogen is such a small atom that the gas escapes easily from piping - so difficult to contain at high pressure without leakage.
This would be problematic if you had an underground car park full of hydrogen powered vehicles - you could get quite a high concentration of hydrogen in the air!
Hydrogen is the new oil!
Cheers
Steve
 

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This could be a potential problem for electric cars - if there isn't enough grid capacity for new homes, how are all the charging points going to work?

"Developers may be prevented from starting projects in west London until 2035 because the electricity grid has run out of capacity to power new homes.

The Greater London Authority (GLA) told developers this week that it may take more than a decade for grid capacity to be increased to sustain new developments in Hillingdon, Ealing and Hounslow."
(The Times)
 

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Yes the Bamford family are very keen on Hydrogen, all these are Bamford family companies:-

Ryzehydrogen is involved inthe supply & transport of hydrogen

Wrightbus manufactures hydrogen powered single & double decker buses

JCB is investing £100 million on a project to produce super-efficient hydrogen engines. 100 engineers are already working on the development with the recruitment of up to 50 more engineers under way as JCB targets the end of 2022 for the first machines to be available for sale to customers.

Watch this space.....

NJSS
 

NJSS

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I should have added Hycap although not a Bamford company is a £1bn investment fund to finance green hydrogen projects set up by Jo Bamford.

NJSS
 
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Big Janner

Big Janner

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This could be a potential problem for electric cars - if there isn't enough grid capacity for new homes, how are all the charging points going to work?

"Developers may be prevented from starting projects in west London until 2035 because the electricity grid has run out of capacity to power new homes.

The Greater London Authority (GLA) told developers this week that it may take more than a decade for grid capacity to be increased to sustain new developments in Hillingdon, Ealing and Hounslow."
(The Times)

Yet we are constantly being told that capacity isn't an issue, most EV's will be charged at night, when demand is low.
A load of bunkum, EV's will be being charged 24/7.
The French own great lumps of our generating capacity
We import electricity directly from France via a cable under the channel

In 1976 I worked on a 2000mw generating station.
Thermal efficiency was approx 34%
By the year 2000 this was up to almost 40%.
Good, but even so, still highly inefficient
In 1976, if generating capacity dropped below 120% of peak demand, the CEGB began to worry
Now . . .we are running at about 108% of demand.
If France decides to cut the cable under the channel, we drop below 100% of demand
How de we run new houses and EV's then?
 

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