The Bocsh cis injection thread.

[carat 3.6]

Hi all,

A freind and I are trying to gather info on the bosch ke-jetronic injection systems fitted to older mercedes, in paticular we are looking at the size's of the air flow meter plate.

So far the only engine we cant find any infomation on is the m119, as fitted to the early 90's sl, and s class.

So my question is, have any members got one of these engines that they could measure the air meter plate for me?

Just to clarify, this is the plate I am refering to...

Thanks in advance.

 

[mazza]

HI mate

No need to check as per PM...he he!!

Young man at Bosch.DE is trying to find some info with regards to Dome AFS

and as Mick Dundee would say....Thats not a distributor...this is a distributor...lol

I'll be in touch

mazza

 

[carat 3.6]

Young man at Bosch.DE is trying to find some info with regards to Dome AFS

Hi Mazza,

that's great, the breakers yards are not being very helpfull. Too lazy to put a tape measure across one for me.

It does make me laugh, everyone I ask just says "it cant be done", but none can give a reason why.

I think I could drain the tank in seconds with that metering head, looks great though!

Will catch up again soon.

 

[carat 3.6]

Mazza,

I managed to track down an m119 metering unit. Not as big as I was expecting but the design has been altered internaly, so I think some cross-breeding of the v8 units is in order.

 

[mazza]

Mazza,

I managed to track down an m119 metering unit. Not as big as I was expecting but the design has been altered internaly, so I think some cross-breeding of the v8 units is in order.

Hi mate

Looks good!! is the bottom boot rubber or metal???

One of the last KE jet units...and upgraded with some motorsport background bits.

Bosch's KE JET motosport division was bought by another organisation and all records/info are locked away in some office...he he!

will let you know

mazza

 

[carat 3.6]

Hi mate

Looks good!! is the bottom boot rubber or metal???

One of the last KE jet units...and upgraded with some motorsport background bits.

Bosch's KE JET motosport division was bought by another organisation and all records/info are locked away in some office...he he!

will let you know

mazza

The bottom boot is alloy on this one, I havent seen a rubber one fitted to a m119 (perhaps even mb learned something there ).

It's very different when compared to the m117 ke unit. The m119 has a 95mm afm plate vs the 100mm of the m117, the plate is also a dome shape like the m104, but the m117 plate is flat. That leads me to think that the shape of the plate speeds up the air flow enough so that you dont need such a large afm, but then again it is running a 500cc smaller engine.

Another thing to note, is that the m119 throttle body is almost directly under the afm (5mm out of center), whereas on the m117 it is completly out of line, dosent overlap the throttle body at all.

The m119....

And the m117...

Anther change on the m119 is that the walls of the venturi continue down at a constant diamiter of 95mm inside the unit, almost touching the throttle body. It just has a small gap for the afm arm to travel up and down. On the m117, the area under the metering head is exposed and not shrouded at all, it also tappers outwards to a huge area.

Another thing I have found is that the m119 has the largest opening of the 3 where the throttle body should be, and the m117 has a smaller opening than the m104!
M119 -83mm
M117 -70mm
M104 -75mm

Yet conversly the m117 has the biggest afm when compared to the others.
M119 -95mm (domed)
M117 -100mm (flat)
M104 -80mm (domed)

I think some serious thought needs putting into this one....

 

[mazza]

The bottom boot is alloy on this one, I havent seen a rubber one fitted to a m119 (perhaps even mb learned something there ).


Another thing I have found is that the m119 has the largest opening of the 3 where the throttle body should be, and the m117 has a smaller opening than the m104!
M119 -83mm
M117 -70mm
M104 -75mm

Yet conversly the m117 has the biggest afm when compared to the others.
M119 -95mm (domed)
M117 -100mm (flat)
M104 -80mm (domed)

I think some serious thought needs putting into this one....

Hi mate

No need for serious thoughts...its the m119 all the way!!!

Info request sent to Koller & Schwemmer, let's see what the boys can dig up.

i love these Bosch ke Units...he he! the mechanical interchangeable bits makes good reading...lol

watch this (mute if you dont like the music...lol) does it look familiar?????

Peugeot 205 T16 Gr. B, Ari Vatanen - YouTube

chat soon

mazza

 

[carat 3.6]

watch this (mute if you dont like the music...lol) does it look familiar?????

Peugeot 205 T16 Gr. B, Ari Vatanen - YouTube

chat soon

mazza

Yeah, looks very familiar. Infact that would be the ideal setup for you to run with, but I doubt that we could find one of those metering heads.
I do like the way they use adjustable port flow to manage the fuel inrichment for the turbo, - 4 ports run the engine normaly, and the other 4 need a higher system pressure to open, providing higher rpm fuel. Perfect as you dont need to mess about with extra injector control units, ect.


Anyway, back to these v8 units.
Looking at how different they are, surly the m117 would get a gain in power by simply fitting the m119 afm, throttle body, and a similar inlet manifold? The m117 setup looks very restrictive when compared to the later engines?

Now to the m104. Say we had an large inlet plenum chamber like in the picture below, I wonder if the air flow speed would be affected if we removed the lower boot from the afm, and mounted the top part directly on top of the plenum? Then the afm plate would be drawn down inside the plenum at full throttle?

Will talk soon mate.

 

[carat 3.6]

So this turned up for some attention yesterday, a 328 gtb v8.:bannana:

It runs an earlier k-jet system than the mercedes, the main change that I can see is that it use's a warm up regulator instead of our cars eha unit. But the intresting bit was that the metering head has the adjustable port flow screws, I wonder how much a ferrari breaker would want for that head.

 

[Dieselman]

watch this (mute if you dont like the music...lol) does it look familiar?????

Peugeot 205 T16 Gr. B, Ari Vatanen - YouTube

Yeah, looks very familiar. Infact that would be the ideal setup for you to run with, but I doubt that we could find one of those metering heads.
I do like the way they use adjustable port flow to manage the fuel inrichment for the turbo, - 4 ports run the engine normaly, and the other 4 need a higher system pressure to open, providing higher rpm fuel. Perfect as you dont need to mess about with extra injector control units, ect.

A neat way of getting round the additional fuelling problem.

I have a sot spot for the T-16 engine as it also found it's way into a road going car sans-turbo. The engine was the same unit with the cylinder head that took 4 years to fully develop and breathes exceptionally well.

Anyway, back to these v8 units.
Looking at how different they are, surly the m117 would get a gain in power by simply fitting the m119 afm, throttle body, and a similar inlet manifold? The m117 setup looks very restrictive when compared to the later engines?

Only if it is causing pressure drop, have you measured whether it is or not?

I guess you are going for a blown option, if so need to measure once you have the blower installed.

Why not ditch the Ke-jetronic and use a Motronic or an aftermarket system.

For originality I would probably go for a Motronic, but add more or larger injectors, remap it to account for boost control and away you go.

All you need is the crank sensor, throttle position, MAP, MAF and Lambda sensor inputs and a set of injectors and you should be good to go.

 

[mattc]

I love reading threads like this despite having only a very vague idea of hat you are all on about!

 

[carat 3.6]

I love reading threads like this despite having only a very vague idea of hat you are all on about!

Dont worry, most of the time I dont know what I'm on about!

 

[carat 3.6]

A neat way of getting round the additional fuelling problem.

I have a sot spot for the T-16 engine as it also found it's way into a road going car sans-turbo. The engine was the same unit with the cylinder head that took 4 years to fully develop and breathes exceptionally well.


Only if it is causing pressure drop, have you measured whether it is or not?

I guess you are going for a blown option, if so need to measure once you have the blower installed.

Why not ditch the Ke-jetronic and use a Motronic or an aftermarket system.

For originality I would probably go for a Motronic, but add more or larger injectors, remap it to account for boost control and away you go.

All you need is the crank sensor, throttle position, MAP, MAF and Lambda sensor inputs and a set of injectors and you should be good to go.

Hi Will,

the t16 is capable of some impressive numbers, it's a shame that the group b rallying had to end, as it may of been developed further. Would the t16 engine have any relation to the mi16 found in the peugeot 405?

At the moment we have done no flow testing of the various engine setups using the k-jet system, just looking at the design changes, also what other manufacture's have done, and trying to apply some theories to it.

The idea that I am working on as late, is that the air flow meter poses an air flow ristriction by it's design. So I'm trying to improve this area first, since if I can get more air into the engine, the extra fuel is only an allen key turn away.

I am intrested to see just what the cis system is capable of, rather than convert to efi. But I do have a big box full of aftermarket efi stuff for when I feel the need, allthough like you say I would rather go with motronic for an original looking conversion. I suppose I could raid an old 80's bmw 535i for its efi setup, and retro fit that to my car.

 

[carat 3.6]

There isnt going to be enough room to mount the metering unit on the inlet manifold like I had planned, so after considering a few options it's going to have to live where the washer bottle should be. The downside of that, is the length of injector lines that will needed to reach the injectors is about 4 feet long! The mk 2 golf gti had a 820mm injector line going to cylinder 4, so I would need a few of those.

 

[mazza]

/QUOTE]

Hello fella

That's a rather large unit Sir!!!

I'll keep an eye out for the VW lines, a mate with a VW MKI thinks he has a spare set of 16v lines...but as we know..THINK is guess work!he he!

I'm working on the "sensors/signals" for road dyno data acquisition and its looking good,

AFR/RPM sorted

fuel pressure (working on it)

playing with MAP/3 BAR BOOST, CHT or EGT and injector duty cicle

I'll let you know how its getting on

ps- Off topic (need to chat regarding the ARB set up, my delmonte man says YES!!!)

cheers
Mazza

 

[carat 3.6]

Hello fella

That's a rather large unit Sir!!!

I'll keep an eye out for the VW lines, a mate with a VW MKI thinks he has a spare set of 16v lines...but as we know..THINK is guess work!he he!


ps- Off topic (need to chat regarding the ARB set up, my delmonte man says YES!!!)

cheers
Mazza

It's a bit of a compromise where I have mounted the metering unit, the ideal place is where the abs unit lives now, but that would require a lot of work to put it over there.

One big problem is going to be the airfilter, or rather where to fit it! I'm giving serious consideration to junking the viscous fan and fitting an electric one, solely so I can move the radiator over to the passenger side.

If I did that, I would have just enough room to fit some c.a.i. ducting past the radiator, and into a cone filter. (A bit like how your 3.2 is now, only reversed to the drivers side.) The other option is to fit the air filter where the fog light should be. Not much of a problem as the oil cooler, (which is shortly to be joined by the oil filter), will live behind the other one.



I might try to drop in monday, for a chat about the arb setup.

 

[carat 3.6]

Inlet manifold...

So time to do something about that inlet manifold....

This is the original manifold after I cut off the unwanted parts, and machined the runners level.

Mercedes meets Triumph.

They line up pretty well.

Can you see what it is yet?

 

[mazza]

Mercedes meets Triumph.

They line up pretty well.

Can you see what it is yet?

Morning fella!

That's a very nice fit Sir! probably better than the M3 TB'S.

Can't tell from the pic but it looks like parts of the throttle linkage is similar to the one I have here, so perfect place for the Micro switch...NICE!!

chat soon

 

[carat 3.6]

Morning fella!

That's a very nice fit Sir! probably better than the M3 TB'S.

Can't tell from the pic but it looks like parts of the throttle linkage is similar to the one I have here, so perfect place for the Micro switch...NICE!!

chat soon

I'm waiting till I get hold of a second set of the triumph throttles, then I can set about joining them together. The tps sensor may prove a challenge as I think it is going to stage a boundery dispute with the water pump.

The bit that hangs down underneath the throttles can be cut off, as that is just an idle stepper motor and bracket. I may try to angle the bodies upwards slightly, just to get that bit more room around the water pump.

I'll keep you posted on how that goes!

 

[Ian Donkin]

Early Suzuki GSXR throttle bodies are entirely separable from their counterparts if you are going down this route - I sold two pairs of 4 recently that I'd been hoarding for a 911 project and they don't fetch much money now.

Porsche also used CIS on their late 2.4T's, non RS 2.7's and the Carerra 3 litre cars, so you might find some technical support from unexpected sources if you need further help with that side of things. The CIS on my old 2.4T was adjustable via a pot in the metering head and was a remarkably simple system (but CIS doesn't like cams with much overlap as the intake reversion this causes knackers the metering principle).