The Complete M271 Engine thread. ( Revised and Updated )

Discussion in 'Engine' started by R2D2, May 15, 2010.

  1. R2D2

    R2D2 MB Club Veteran

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    The Complete M271 Engine thread. ( Revised and Updated )


    People are forever asking about how to mod their M271 C180 Kompressor so I thought some work was required to help guide us all! Hope this helps someone.

    The Complete M271 Engine thread.

    As you know a number of people regularly ask about the M271 engine on this and other forums. Mercedes made this engine in such away as it can be configured to provide different outputs and therefore has been used in many different guises and models.

    BACKGROUND

    The new W204 C Class uses the engine as does the W203 C Class. But Mercedes also used the engine in the CLK W209, W211 E Class and SLK.
    You may be surprised to learn that a derivative of the M271 was used in Formula 3.



    For those who are interested in how our engine is used in F3 read on. For those only interested in their M271 then scroll down a bit.

    Mercedes engined F3 car (2006)

    In the five years since Mercedes-Benz began its involvement in Formula Three, it has developed into the formula's most dominant engine supplier. Its engines, which are built and serviced by H.W.A GmbH, have so far contributed to a total of four drivers' and four teams' championship titles in the Formula Three Euroseries and British Formula Three Championship.

    The H.W.A Mercedes-AMG M271 was based on a 1.8 litre 4-cylinder from the C-Klasse, bored out to the regulation 2.0 litre capacity.[4] Formula Three engine regulations demand a naturally-aspirated, 4-stroke, 4-cylinder, production-based specification, with a capacity of not more than 2000cc.[5] The M271 made its competitive debut in the 2002 German Formula 3 Championship in two of Mücke Motorsport's three Dallara F302 chassis, driven by Markus Winkelhock and Marcel Lasse.[6] Winkelhock achieved Mercedes' first F3 win at the Nürburgring in August 2002.[7]

    In 2003, Mercedes expanded its Formula Three program by supplying three teams in the inaugural year of the F3 Euroseries. Its engine powered the seven cars of Mücke Motorsport, Team Kolles, and ASM Formule 3.[8] Speiss-Opel was dominant, thanks in part to Ryan Briscoe and Prema Powerteam, but Mercedes was winning by the eighth round.[9] Its most notable win was provided by Christian Klien at Zandvoort in the non-championship Marlboro Masters.[10]

    Between 2004 and 2006, Mercedes-powered cars have dominated the drivers' and teams' championships in the Euroseries, due in part to its close relationship with ASM Formule 3, which is one of France's most successful F3 teams. It has brought drivers' titles for Jamie Green, Lewis Hamilton, and Paul di Resta.[11] 2006 also saw Mercedes' first participation in the British F3 Championship, when it partnered with Double R Racing, co-owned by Kimi Räikkönen, and two other teams.[12] Double R Racing's lead driver, Mike Conway, dominated the championship.[13] In the 2007 British F3 season, Mercedes now powers the majority of the Championship field. (Wikipedia)

    HISTORY

    The Mercedes-Benz M271 engine is a straight-4 automobile piston engine family used in the 2000s.

    All M271 engines are built in Bad Cannstatt, Germany. The family has a cast iron engine block and aluminum DOHC cylinder heads. It uses SFI fuel injection, has 4 valves per cylinder with variable valve timing, is supercharged and intercooled, and features fracture-split forged steel connecting rods.

    The E18 is a 1.8 L (1796 cc) version. Bore is 82 mm and stroke is 85 mm. Output ranges from 143 hp ECE (105 kW) at 5500 rpm to 192 hp ECE (141 kW) at 5800 rpm. A version running on natural gas was introduced in the German market in 2002.

    VERSIONS

    The new W204 uses the M271 in the C180k and the C200k. In these guises the engine produces 154bhp and 181bhp.

    The W203 Class and CLK, E Class and SLK used different versions which in 180 guise produce 143bhp, in 200 produce 163bhp and in 230 products 193bhp.

    WHATS THE DIFFERENCE

    Many people have asked so how do Mercedes set and control the power output of what is basically the same engine in order to give it 5 different power levels.

    Some of us have trailed parts lists in order to find out the differences.
    Miro came up with this research:

    “C180K, C200K conversion to C230K with M271 series 240, 246, 248
    After many hours of sifting through the data and checking 6 VINS against each other I can suggest the following findings about the M271.

    * If the engine is 2005 spec then it will be specially upgraded already with low noise parts that were recently introduced.

    * In all M271 2005 the 5 speed transmission is identical

    * In all M271 the crankcase and 5 speed auto slip ring are identical

    * all results exclude CGI and SLK for now.

    C180K, C200K and C230K differ in the following ways
    ---------------------------------------------------
    - piston
    - supercharger (only 2 models - one for 230K and one for others.
    - ECU (engine control unit)
    - Some differences in intercooler and hoses are possible with year of build.

    ….. There are two SuperChargers, two piston types and 3 ECU. You can make 3 variants with 2 x 2 combinations. Obviously there is no logical variant in the ECU as it is specific for a task (but there are 3 versions)

    I believe that in developer mode you can reset the engine type of the ECU.

    PISTON SC
    Low Low
    High Low
    High High

    This is not the real matrix but I am postulating that these compression combinations make the 3 engine types.”

    My own research has confirmed that 180 and 200 versions use Eaton M45 superchargers MB part number A271 090 2080 whereas 230 versions use A271 090 2181.

    Se97mlm added: “180k and 200k are identical, it's just the software in the ECU that limits the output (and maybe a pulley for the SC). That's why they are called internally m271 and m271red (red for reduced output)
    The 230k engine is called m271evo and has the different pistons etc.”

    The reason C230 version has different pistons is because the three main variants have different compression ratio.

    C180 has a compression ratio of 10.2:1
    C200 has a compression ratio of 9.5:1
    C230 has a compression ratio of 8.7:1

    Given that the each version has the same bore and stroke (82x85mm) the different compression ratios are achieved by the use of different pistons.

    “Capacity usually means theoretical swept volume ( By the piston) bore X stroke. Each engine is 'blown' by the supercharger, but typically if you want to blow harder for greater output you need to lower the compression ratio to stop pre ignition Ah. So changing the CR isn't the answer in itself. To elaborate a bit, the compression ratio is the swept volume divided by the unswept volume.

    If you take two engines, identical apart from the conrod length, they will have the same capacity (swept volume) but the engine with the shorter conrods will have a lower compression ratio as it will leave a larger unswept volume.”

    MODDING THE M271 IN ORDER TO GET MORE HP.

    I have tried to mod my M271 and have tried numerous products and others, particularly in the US, have tried other products to basically get around MBs limiting of power outputs to different model designations and the remainder of this diatribe concentrates on this area.

    Back to Basics….power losses.

    Every M271 is connected to a gearbox and 97% of those gearboxes are the automatic version. So to make things easy I’m only looking at auto gearbox losses.

    Really the engine outputs of 143bhp ,163bhp and 193bhp are a bit meaningless as its Rear Wheel HP that counts (RWHP), however manufacturers prefer to quote the higher figure rather than the useful and measurable one.

    In the past great discussion has happened about how much bhp is lost on a Mercedes trasmission. Suggestions have been made that it is as low as 10% or as high as 25% (a figure many dyno outfits use-I wonder why). Well the answer for the M271 engine with the auto gearbox is 18%!

    How am I so sure, well first of all-there will be differences from car to car, oil to oil, mileage to mileage but I have had my car dyno 3 times and more importantly US C230 drivers have dynoed their cars many times and the answer most frequently comes out at about 18%.

    For example:
    “Iceman in the US reported:
    Here is the result of the dyno of his C230k. (Crank 193bhp Stock)

    Max Power was: 160.5 @ 5800 RPM
    Max Torque was: 165.1 @ 3600 RPM

    All the runs where made at 4th gear with 5800 rpm. The car only has an ITG air filter. Other than that it is stock. The runs where made with the stock 17" wheels. Little dissapointed with the results.”

    From now on I’m taking transmission losses as 18%. This means that

    C180. 143bhp –18% = 117.2 RWHP
    C200 163bhp –18% = 133.6 RWHP
    C230 193bhp –18% = 158.2 RWHP

    PERFORMANCE FIGURES

    Mercedes claim the following for standard automatic cars.

    C180 0-60 9.9 secs Top Speed 138mph
    C200 0-60 9.4 secs Top Speed 144mph
    C230 0-60 8.9 secs Top Speed 148mph

    Urban Fuel consumption is supposed to be 24.1mpg, 23.3mpg and 21.4mpg (LOL)

    Those of you who read my ramblings know that I have been exploring modding the M271 engine for ages.

    I previously wrote about a year ago:

    “My C180k is supposed to produce 143bhp and do 0-60 in 10 according to Whatcars measurements of their test car.

    I had my car dynoed and was surprised to find I already had 142bhp at the wheels which assuming 22% transmission losses on my auto (Wrong! As discussed above) means my car now has about 182bhp at the crank.(Wrong! As above)

    I have just added a Carlsson Blue Air filter which helps the thing breath and I've started running it on Super Unleaded which also helps. On Monday I am having the ECU remapped by Upsolute who have promised a further 17bhp which would take me over the 200bhp mark.

    Given that a C230k (1.8 M271) has 193bhp and does 60 in 8.4secs (auto) I expect that my car should get to the low 8's by Monday night.

    Watch this space! I have had my car remapped by Upsolute and also tried Carlsson Filters and Brabus exhausts and filters. I also have sprintbooster fitted.

    My conclusions are that chipping adds a little more driveability and perhaps a little more "smoothness" but thats all, talk of 20bhp, 30bhp even 40bhp is all rubbish. I have now had my remapped to the last w203 software issue and can't feel any difference.

    Having tried 3 different airfilters. K and N oils up your MAS causing it to fail. I had my car dynoed with a standard airfilter and a K and N and there was NO difference at all. The Carlsson one if just a french made K and N. I now run the OEM one but change it every year.

    I have tried AMG and Brabus exhausts. Both added noise but NO power increase.

    Sprintbooster. Is excellent it adds no BHP but makes the car feel much quicker through the gears.

    I'll get my car dynoed some day with SB fitted and see how the torque line looks because it goes a lot better than it did without the SB.

    The other M271 engine mods are headers (manifold) of which Kleeman makes a gorgeous looking one for £750. Unfortunately it discolours the first time you use it and therefore losses its looks and if you read the kleemann website it isn't liscensed for road use and is used at your risk. Other headers exist but I've not met anyone with one fitted.

    Kleemann Performance Kits for the M271

    http://www.kleemann.dk/site/Main/per...erformancekits

    Note the C230 M271 isn’t offered anymore.

    Schrick (sp) make cams that give your engine more top end but less mid range and sometimes muck up your idle.

    Several firms make pulley kits that the US forums seem to question the worth of. If they work then why are there always used sets available on ebay and US forums.

    MKB do a pulley, intercooler, chip, filter kit for about 100,000.......

    Other useful links

    BRABUS

    VÄTH ::: Mercedes Tuning :::

    MKB-Tuning.de

    Carlsson Autotechnik - Mercedes Tuning auf Gut Wiesenhof - Aerodynamik, Interieur, Leistungssteigerung, Räder, Felgen

    EXTRA INFO

    It is alleged that the C180 runs about 6-7PSI boost on the kompressor and that the C230 version runs 11PSI , therefore if you swapped the kompressor for the c230 version you may get more boost and therefore more power- or you may blow your engine up because the compression ratio is too high and you end up running it too lean unless you address fuelling (ECU) and pistons (Compression Ratio). Nobody knows coz no body has done it yet!
    You could put a smaller pulley on your existing kompressor. This is not easy and requires a pulley puller that heats the pulley up to 300c so it expands enough to be pulled off.



    Stock Supercharger Pulley — about 2.78 in diameter
    2.50 in diameter would speed up compressor 10 %
    2.36 in diameter would speed up compressor 15 %

    Some say they work. Some say they work if you have your ECU done to increase fuelling –Others say that making the kompressor spin faster, moves it to a less efficient part of its kompressor function and that it ultimately makes less power and wears everything out quicker.

    Others have tried to add a bigger intercooler-several attempts at that reduced power by about 5bhp.

    So what do you do:

    1. Well you either do new new cams, new pistons, new kompressor, new pulleys, remapped ECU, new filters plus new injectors for fuelling you might end up with 240bhp absolute tops-if you can get it all to work. Frankly buying a C32 would be cheaper.

    2. You remap it, sprintboost it, put a nice clean MB airfilter in and run it on Vmax and get a nice smooth-bit faster M271.

    3.......or you accept what you’ve got and enjoy it!


    A year ago I bought a Gtech and performance measured my car when it had K and N, Brabus exhaust, 102 ron fuel, Upsolute remap and it was going well.
    I measured 0-60 in 8.4 seconds and dynoed my car at 142 RWHp or 170bhp instead of the 143bhp I’m supposed to have at the crank not at the rear wheels.

    Graham C230k said the following:

    “If you are already up 27BHP, why not be happy with that?

    You did buy the C180 again, which you knew to be the lowest powered model and I understand factors influence that choice. However, you made that choice and you are still from what you say ~20% up - that's very good indeed. You could have paid £500 for a remap that did nothing, had the dyno and thought wow - I'm 20% up - £500 well spent.

    You are 20% up and have a clear conscience telling the insurance company the car is stock!

    I see why you have 193 BHP in your sights, but maybe now is the time to be content with the good fortune you already have.”

    Graham may well be right.

    I have had my car software updated by MB which will rid me off my Upsolute remap, I’m running 95 ron fuel and standard airfilter and exhaust. I’ve even temporarily removed my Sprintbooster. So today my car is standard……….

    My new G tech Pro is here (I sold my old one) and for your amusement I’m going to test my car with all mods removed and then with Sprintbooster back on as I miss it being there!

    I’ll let you know how I get on.

    I hope this load of information helps the M271 modders or would be modders out there!

    Let us know how you get on!
    Good Luck
    R2

    (All of the above is my opinion and you act on any of it at your own risk!-You’ve been warned!)
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2011
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    R2D2

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    Kjay: So, back to the topic of the M271.

    Been waiting for Kleemann to phone back this afternoon. They've just phoned with the following...


    Stage 1. Pully mod,ECU,serpentine belt and idler plus airfilter.

    = 210 BHP 1,645 + VAT fully fitted.



    Stage 2. As above plus header and manifold

    =235 BHP 3280 + VAT Fully fitted



    That was a little more than I was expecting. but then I suppose they are one of the best.

    R2D2:OK. well moving on. Todays results were done in the same way as yesterdays except that I had refitted my Sprintbooster. (Which doesn't add any HP and doesn't claim to). I also checked my timings with a stopwatch to keep folk happy. The stop watch was always with a couple of tenths of gtech. So I'm taking gtech as correct.

    Yesterdays 0-60s were
    7.84
    8.29
    7.41
    = Average of 7.84 seconds

    Today with Sprintbooster fitted.
    8.06
    8.02
    7.68
    =Average of 7.92 ie. within .08 of yesterdays result.

    Sprintbooster therefore adds nothing to 0-60 but everything to feel and driveability and therefore it stays on!

    The stopwatch says 8 sec as well.

    KJAY: I managed to get away from work a bit early today, so I decided to get some times with the stopwatch.
    Should be easy I thought!
    I had a helper (10.5 stone) with the Stopwatch.
    We eventualy found a flat bit of road long enough - not easy in this part of the country!!

    Then trying to find gaps in the traffic, manouvering onto the road so car was pointing straight!!!

    Managed to get 3 runs...

    1st. 9.20
    2nd 8.90
    3rd 9.30

    Poor car thought it had been nicked by joyriders!!!

    Non of the starts were very good - third was the worst as you can see. probably would be better if I was controling stopwatch as there's obviosly a delay between helper saying 'go' and me transfering foot the accelerator.
    Having thought about it since, a better way may be to hold car from creeping with left foot on brake?

    I dont supose 23.5 stone in passenger/driver weight will help. On the other hand it was very cold which may of helped a few bhp!
    Oh, and results were with Sprintbooster still fitted, bit shouldn't make any difference.

    Anyway, just wanted to show the results as this seems to add to the case for R2D2's 180K having more power than it should!!!

    R2D2. AIR INLETS

    At the front of the engine bay on M271 cars the left hand air inlet pipe is used but the right hand one is closed off. If one opened the right hole and used a C320 air inlet pipe. The route to the air box would be a straight line and shorter, leading to better air flow and a possible ramair effect.

    Parts diagrams below........but would you feel a difference in pick up or power????

    Part 26 would replace M271 590.................better still open left and right ports up!? Comments welcome...

    KJAY: Looks interesting! Am gonna have a look under the bonnet tomorrow to see. Have you any idea on price for the parts.

    I'm researching hard but am afraid I'm not comming up with much apart from the pulley and ecu route. I even joined MBWorld - It's vast!!!

    Am just waiting on some more info from Car Evolution Ltd. Then I'll post again.

    Stats007: The ramair effect if any occurred would be unnoticeable as the car is supercharged anyway. What you might have to consider is that MB designed it this way to obtain the coolest air possible (the roots device is positive displacement so very inefficient thermally).

    The air flow for the MAF sensor also needs to be as free as possible - any change to flow path can cause turbulance which can upset the fuelling ratio.

    R2D2: Thanks. The "trouble" with the current setup is air enters the car on the left and travels about 3 ft around two bends before entering the air box. The other c class engines enter at the right and the air can travel in a straight line straight to the airbox. The airfilter is conical and set end on so no air goes straight through the filter but enters the filter through the sides and is then drawn down the centre of the filter through to the MAS.

    Forgetting for a moment the "just using the right side approach" what about it one could add the right side to the existing left side entry so that twice as much air was being directed to the airbox-surely that would have some benefit-afterall Renntech have sold bigger airboxes for years???

    FredFloggle: Easiest thing is to get yourself a differential pressure gauge and make a few tests through the inlet tract - you'll find that messing around with the inlet tract will make very little difference. If you have access to any ODB software you can play around and measure air mass flow.

    Is the concensus that this is a mod which although achieveable won't achieve much?

    A guy in the US made this scoop for the right side-he's a bit coy about gains though his workmanship is amazing! He reckons that it gives him more above 4000rpm

    Picture belongs to mig888
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2011
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    R2D2

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    Stats 007: I very much doubt it - if anything it will do more at low rpm. The way a Roots supercharger works means that the boost builds from the manifold - up to a certain pressure - more air in means you get there slightly quicker - but once up to full boost (2.5k rpm is it?) there's no benefit.

    KJAY: Is full boost reached by 2500rpm?

    Thanks.
    Jay

    Stats007: I don't know the exact figures for this application but the point of a Roots device is to boost low range torque.

    GrahamC230K: Can STAR or anything similar give you the readings from the MAF?

    When doing this sort of modification on the Audi, I log the MAF readings, then can compare before and after to see if the engine is flowing more air and at what rpm.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by R2D2
    So have you already done this mod Graham?

    Not quite the same. I moddified my airbox to be similar to an RS4 one, fitted a full RS4 exhaust from the turbos back and gutted the precats (leaving the 200CPI main cats).

    Even all that gave minimal gains depending on how you look at it. Petty much no peak BHP increase, but a fully documented and proven sharper torque curve at lower rpm, a nice increase in torque accorss the board and peak BHP held until higher rpms than before. All as expected really.

    I personally doubt your engine needs more air or that the mod you are looking at would help. Warnings of turbulance etc important.

    I luckilly can measure many attributes of my engine and so could tell you if one air filter saw the maf meaure a greater flow of air or not. Unless you can do the same, given the small difference these changesd make one by one, I dont see how you can tell if it's better or worse.

    You can monitor all sensor info with Star - individual coil pack voltage, air temp, flow etc.


    KJAY: Hello!


    Ok, Got some info from Ben at Car Evolution Ltd. which some of you may be interested in.

    They offer a 210 bhp conversion (200K) which comprises of the pulley coversion and re-map. I haven't been successful in finding any dyno results to show , but am assured it gives a good power increase accross the rev range. Boost pressure is increased from 0.5 bar to 0.8/0.9 bar.

    They'll offer the pulley at cost price to them (530) and the re-map costs 375. Total 915 pounds - including VAT.
    You'll need to add the cost of getting the pulley fitted by your garage/dealer (approx 3 Hrs) And then Evolution come out to do the re-map on same/next day.
    They've said they would offer a discount for a 'group buy' (eample 3 people) of 75 pounds each.


    Anyone interested??

    You can contact Car Evolution on ben@CarEvolution.co.uk

    Tudu: Hi All. My car is a 55 plate C200K Sport Edition. Mods carried out so far are: Schatz 3 fin sports grille and bonnet emblem, IPod connector, CK-W7 car kit, which i use a Nokia N70 (upgrading shortly to 8 mb N95) on bluetooth. Remap and cat back stainless steel dual exhaust system with AMG tailpipes. Since fitted has reduced lag - put your foot down and off she goes with a nice deep rumble, Limo black tints rear windows, 3/4s and back window.

    Mods to do:

    Kleeman header - as Janspped quoted me over a grand, and my guy who built my cat back system doesn't do headers. The Kleeman header will be fitted to a custom built downpipe and freeflow sports cat, hope to see better improvement as whole system will be custom stainless steel. Kleeman Stage 1 performance kit, 18" AMG's alloys That's about it really as any more is probably not sensible . Next car, possibly a C320 Sport but not the new W204 don't like the new shape. Why can't MB/AMG do a nice new sensible 3.5 V8 I would be the first to buy if they did.

    Does anyone now how i can convert Audio 20 system to do sat/nav as my old tom tom is now defunct?
    Stats007:
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2011
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    R2D2

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    R2D2: I haven't found anyone in the UK who has fitted one. in the US they seem to like them and say that the FORS are better noise and a bit more power. The AGAINSTs are the new header get VERY hot, discolours to a bronzed colour after about 10 miles and actually reduces torque low down because of a reduction in back pressure or something.

    Tudu: Hi Wully, yes i think so. My C2OOK is a 1796 M271, 163BHP i believe.

    R2D2: Transmission losses: G tech plus three dyno runs on my car and about 100 runs on the US forums. I didn't pull 18% out of thin air. Most Dyno shops seem to say Merc auto boxes are 25% but newer ones are nearer 18%.

    Edit 18% is only for M271 C Classes i haven't a clue what figures apply to manual cars like Evos!

    Bobby Dazzler: The chassis dynos that calculate the flywheel power will be based upon the readings at the wheel.

    A guesstimate on ball park transmission losses and a quick go on a chassis dyno is much easier and more cost effective than whipping out the engine and doing it on a bench though!!

    I read somewhere that 25% was about right for an auto, and 18% seems collective wisdom for manuals.

    My C32 was 296bhp at the wheels when I had a dyno run.

    Based upon 25% that would mean 395bhp at the flywheel - very unlikely.

    Based upon 18% it would be 360bhp at the flywheel - more realistic.

    The published crank figure is 349bhp which if my car was bang on, it would mean 15% losses - unlikely for an auto.

    Interestingly the organiser of the event (not the rolling road operator) uses the following to approximate flywheel power for RWD cars - add 10 bhp to the wheel figure and divide the result by 0.88 - a formula we agreed months before the shootout. Based upon 296 rwhp it works out at 348 bhp at the crank. Pretty close to the published figure of 349 bhp.

    Back to topic...
    Maddog: If you want a measured figure then you need to measure it .

    Rolling road dynos work in two ways one by measuring the power at the wheels and then during the run down cycle of the dyno run measuring the resistance through the drivetrain , this is take from the first figure to give a "flywheel" figure or they measure the power at the wheels and then calculate the power at the flywheel with something like a 18% figure

    Problem is dynos can be thrown but lots of factors , cold tyres will give different results to hot tyres as will cold and hot transmissions a amte of mine recently discovered a binding rear brake was costing him HP at the wheels

    If you are going to estimate the transmission losses you might as well estimate the whole dyno run and save the hassle of actually running the car on one.

    Its extremly rare to be able to repeat factory hp figure i'm instantly suspicious of anything close

    Interestingly the organiser of the event (not the rolling road operator) uses the following to approximate flywheel power for RWD cars - add 10 bhp to the wheel figure and divide the result by 0.88 - a formula we agreed months before the shootout. Based upon 296 rwhp it works out at 348 bhp at the crank. Pretty close to the published figure of 349 bhp.

    Having measured the hp of my car at both the hubs and a calculated dyno flywheel figure that formula would give my car an extra 20hp if only getting the extra horsepower was a simple as that!!

    R2D2: I think what it proves is that dyno figures are subject to many variables and g tech figures are questioned by some and that others don't like 0-60 figures as a comparison with factory ones.

    If you look at the figures I have done on my car on Dynos. The last two runs showed RWHP of 142bhp. Which if you allow trasmission losses of 25% means 190HP - 25% = 142RWHP
    but if you say losses are 18% then the car has 183bhp.
    If you apply Bobbie's method 142 +10= 152 / 0.88 = 173BHP

    You tell me which one is right?

    Maddog: The rwhp figure of 142bhp

    Its the only one that is measured :D

    R2D2: ""C180. 143bhp –18% = 117.2 RWHP
    C200 163bhp –18% = 133.6 RWHP
    C230 193bhp –18% = 158.2 RWHP

    PERFORMANCE FIGURES

    Mercedes claim the following for standard automatic cars.

    C180 0-60 9.9 secs Top Speed 138mph
    C200 0-60 9.4 secs Top Speed 144mph
    C230 0-60 8.9 secs Top Speed 148mph""

    One the graph showing 142bhp the engineer/operater has written 170bhp at the wheels which is 17% transmission loss. Still given my car if supposed to have 143hp crank/117RWHP I'm pretty pleased with 142 RWHP and 0-60 in the low 8's.

    Its all good fun

    R2D2: There is a thread on the maths of it here Power, Torque and rolling roads (Now a Sticky)

    Maddog: No you are right they do, dynos do measure torque not always at the wheels though

    Torque is a force , horsepower is a calculation of how much force is produced over time.

    Autos are also very hard to dyno accuratly on those machines which measure drivetrain losses , my local dyno place which i used to set up a friends car reckoned he wouldnt be able to get an accurate figure out of my E class just a ballpark.

    The power and torque lines on a dyno graph should cross as 5252rpm as you can see on this one the red lines and the blue lines are two dyno runs overlaid

    Tudu: Anyone heard of Angel Tuning? My guy in Plymouth (an agent) say's he can supply and fit a pulley kit, new remap and induction kit on my C200K Sport for £1,100.00 all in. Seems better than Kleeman price. If they are okay and i went for it, the final thing to do would be to buy the Kleeman header and cat replacement, which Plymouth would fit for me as well.

    Tudu: Yes, Kleeman are not good on customer service they must have so much business that they don't need ours. I am as you can imagine slightly sceptical of the pulley and induction kit from my guy in Plymouth. Kleeman have a longstanding reputation for quality MB add-ons so i would be going into unknown territory. Even though the cost for the pulleys and induction kit is £1,100.00 from my guy I am seriously thinking about the risk factor.

    As to the header and sports cat replacement, again Kleeman are the only company (i think) who have developed a proper sports cat replacement for the C Class. My guy could make the exact same header for £600.00, but the problem with the sports cat is the 2 lamda plugs that fit into the replacement cat as my C 200K has 2 cats with a plug in each one. I am told that the cat would upset the car's management system. Thus, i think i would just buy the Kleeman header and sports cat and get my guy to fit a downpipe to connect to my already dual exhaust system. In either case the car would require a complete remap and rolling road to fully test the new additions.

    I have a lot of thinking to do over the next few weeks. Hope that helps.

    R2D2; Tudu, if you fit that Kleeman header then we NEED every detail recorded here as you'd be the first UK M271 owner to fit one and post the details

    Bobby Dazzler: It would be great to see before, during and after photos. The Kleemann headers are supposedly prone to tarnishing with use, but to be honest I wouldn't be concerned as long as they deliver the performance they promise.

    Tudu:HOORAY - had long emails with Kleeman UK today. I am ordering the header and cat replacement. They also emailed back the concerns i had with the 2 lamda sensors that fit into the OEM header and OEM cat. All is well and the lamdas fit straight into the Kleeman header and cat and there are no problems with the engine management system or back pressure owing to the custom built freeflow dual exhaust system i already had done a couple of months ago. The only addition i might need to consider is a remap but i will wait until i receive the kit from Denmark, fit it and see as there is no welding to do its all clamps. There is a Merc specialist in Plymouth who i will pay a visit to and ask him to fit for me, and if thats okay ask if he let me photograph the whole process for before and after purposes.

    Not really concerned regarding the tarnishing as it will be under the bonnet. But am more interested in delivery of performance. So far the custom cat back stainless steel dual system i had done recently has improved performance, so i am hoping with a full freeflow system to see a much better increase. Better be for £1,850.00.

    Forgot to mention in my surprise at having been in detailed conversations with Kleeman most of the day. Anyway for those interested the price for the Boost (performance) kit for C200K (M271) consisting of:

    Crank pulley
    water-pump pulley
    belt
    K-box
    Assembly kit + instruction manual

    costs = £1,495.00 + VAT

    I still need more convincing that this mod with the Kleeman header and cat will increase the 163 BHP of my C200K to 230. Getting bloody expensive this modding malarky, but might be willing to try after rolling road testing once the header and cat have bedded in to the rest of the system. Getting all a bit to technical for me should have just bought a C320 with sprintbooster.

    R2d2: Hurray! Well done. How long have WE , I mean YOU, got to wait!! Really looking forward to seeing this mod. Anychance of a before and after dyno?

    Steen from Kleeman is ringing Denmark for me on Monday and sorting it all out. I have waited 2 months already so another couple of weeks won't be a problem. Given all the effort and cost it would seem sensible to get dyno before and after as would no doubt show increase if any. The plus is that if anyone else was interested in going down this road the dyno would show whether the mod was value for money in terms of increased BHP. I'm also still considering the boost (performance) kit from Kleeman with a view to fit header, cat and kit all at the same time. Only problem is i have just paid out for Comand sat nav to be installed so kit might have to wait until March.

    I will also hold off on the sprintbooster for the time being, as since i have had my custom cat back stainless steel dual exhaust system done and remap i no longer suffer from the dreaded MB pedal lag when applying the gas. Still think its a good mod though.

    Bobby Dazzler: You don't do things by half do you!!??

    In the interests of science, it may be good to just fit the header/exhaust first with before and after dyno sessions. Then fit the performance kit, with another dyno session.

    Of course if you really want to offer your services - and wallet - to the world of science, you could take it all off and do it the opposite way round, to see what affect the performance kit makes without the header??


    Tudu: Thanks, You are right, which is why i will probably wait till March for boost kit, that's if i am still convinced that it would offer any decent increase. The header and cat linked up to my already freeflow system might be all i am looking for, and I certainly would not want to spend in excess of £1,600 for a kit that might just improve my cars BHP by 5%.

    Kleeman admitted to me that after about 10 miles the lovely stainless steel disappears and is replaced by a wonderful bronze colour due to the heat. As to the noise as Longlife exhaust will now be fitting the header and cat for me if it is too loud i will have a custom muffler fitted to calm it down. Will also need to wait week or two before getting second dyno as ECU will need about 100 miles to recognise changes and adjust.

    I also can't wait seeing it sat all nice and shiny on my bedroom floor (did i really mean to say that)

    Hi All, well it's done. First thoughts - left my camera at Longlife so can't post any pic's (will pick up first thing in the morning). The Dyno run done early this afternoon gave a max HP figure of 171.9 (scanner not working so can't post dyno graph). Although the car seems slightly quicker it might just be me so will have to wait once it has bedded in with the ECU before getting further dyno done. No difference in sound which is good. As it was dark by the i arrived home about 20 mins ago had a quick look under the bonnet, and the journey from Longlife to home 5.3 miles the exhaust has already changed colour. Will give the car a good run tomorrow open it up and see if i can notice the difference will hopefully be a to give a better report plus upload pics.

    Ordered Kleemann TS-7 18" Alloy wheels today and will be picking them up Monday 4th, while i am in Surrey having DVD Comand fitted. Could my car become the first Kleemann C Class in the UK.

    R2D2: Is that 171.9bhp before or after the header. Well done, looking forward to the photos!

    Tudu: 171.9 bhp is the before dyno must be the remap i had done a few months ago.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by R2D2
    Excellent. Thank you for the photos. It looks great -how does it sound?
    Looking forward to the after dyno. Lets hope you get 20bhp plus!

    Edit. PS. Did you manage to find out if they have sold other headers in the UK. Your the first on any of the forums!

    Thanks. Sound gives nice deep rumble and seems to rev higher, although i really wish i had done the performance kit at the same time. According to Steen at Kleemann UK i am the first W203 C Class header and cat replacement in the UK, but i believe our friends over the water have been fitting them to W203's from Kleemann USA and their distributors.

    Re the 20bhp i am still sceptical whether the header and cat alone will achieve 20bhp, i would think at the moment somewhere between 5-10 increase if that but the next dyno will tell.

    GrahamC230k: Looks good!

    Dyno dynamics dyno, my personal favourite. Run in Shoot_4 mode which is correct I think, so I'd say that figure you have is as good as any.

    Really would have been good to have some true before figures though.

    I have found with doing exhaust work on an already tuned car, peak power doesn't necessarilly change but you can get really distinct changes/improvements to the power and torque curves etc and here before and after dyno plots are great at guaging the change. Changing to sports cats and deleting the precats (slighly larger rear section too) on my car I saw peak power hold to higher revs and a broader torque curve with a increase in peak torque too. Not similar cars, but my point is you have probably achieved the same, not much in peak power, but power delivery/spread and torque probably the biggest areas of change.

    It's probably here but what have you had done to get that 170BHP? Headers, sports cat and a remap?

    Tudu: The above dyno was done prior to having the header and cat fitted. All i had done previously was a remap and a stainless steel cat dual exhaust quad pipe system fitted (this is what achieved the 171.9BHP figure in the dyno pic above) . I am interested to see in a couple of weeks when i fit the Kleemann performance kit and dyno the car again to see if their has been a performance improvement with the header and cat linked up to the previous system fitted.
     
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  5. OP
    OP
    R2D2

    R2D2 MB Club Veteran

    Messages:
    6,935
    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2004
    Car:
    C350
    Tudu: Ordered the M271 Performance Kit

    Yes, i went and did it. While i was in East Sussex today picking up my new Kleemann TS-7 Alloys, and having DVD Command fitted by Alfie and Richard i ordered the M271 performance kit specific for my C200K. The rated BHP for the header, cat and performance kit should be 210BHP. Well, i will wait until it arrives, fit it, dyno and see if Kleemann products live up to their name. Will keep posted. After this mod i don't think there is anything more i can do engine wise in terms of Kleemann.

    Bobby Dazzler; Quote:
    Originally Posted by tudu
    After this mod i don't think there is anything more i can do engine wise in terms of Kleemann.

    If you do go for the bodywork - there won't be much more you can do car-wise, nevermind engine-wise!!

    I hope Steen is looking after you - can't be many Kleemann customers like you in the UK.

    Steen has been really good given my first negative impressions of Kleemann UK. Ooooh yes theres lots more i can do on the inside - Kleemann interior, Braybrook DVD changer and monitors in rear headrests (for my 2 kids). I've also looked again at the Kleemann body kit. If i did decide i would probably only fit the front as the skirts and the rear look similar to the AMG plus i would have to cut out the Kleemann rear to fit my dual exhaust system so couldn't sell the AMG rear unless purchaser had similar dual exhaust system. Great fun though apart from the cost I just have to work harder this year to pay for it all.


    R2D2 : I think the danger is though if you get too far away from standard it becomes hard to sell know matter how brilliant the end result is. For instance MB won't touch a modded car (unless it's a Brabus kit they sell).

    Edit: When I sold my W202 I had to strip the whole car of every mod and return it to standard. Mind you several cars on here are still using the original R2 bits!

    Tudu: I would probably sell privately as i don't think MB give the best deals, or as you say keep it as it is and strip out mods. The only problem i would be left with would be the dual exhaust quad pipe system.

    R2D2; I have been looking into what it possible with remapping and this is from the Upsolute website.

    Model Original UPsolute Original UPsolute
    Mercedes C180 Kompressor 143 hp 158 hp 220 NM 240 NM
    Mercedes C200 Kompressor 163 hp 175 hp 240 NM 255 NM
    Mercedes C230 Kompressor 192 hp 212 hp 260 NM 290 NM

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Dieselman
    Ah, think I've got it now. 104Kw at the wheels maybe..?? 139Bhp. Say 18% loss gives 164Bhp.

    You really needed to have an at the wheels figure before doing any work and just go from there.

    R2D2; I did the maths this way. I think I right netting down rather than grossing up. Can someone clever tell me

    104kw x 1.34 =139bhp at the wheels. 170bhp-18% =139bhp

    So hence why I think Crank bhp is 170bhp.

    Edit: Confession, I've been checking my car file and I think my 170bhp dyno must have been with the Upsolute remap, Optimax (then) and possibly a k & N as well (before I knew what they did to your MAS!). I have other dynos in the range 150-154bhp which must be as standard.


    Tudu: used Angel Tuning who did my remap they quoted an estimated 10 per cent increase (163 - 173) having had a recent dyno which showed 171.9 BHP I am down 1.1 percent. Given that this is an estimate its not to bad. I am more interested to see whether the Kleemann products (header, cat and performance kit) will achieve the estimated 230BHP. I am sceptical but willing to pay to test the product even if i only get to 193-195. But, it would be nice to break the 200 BHP barrier.

    Your car with the remap has increased nearer to 30 per cent which is even better estimate although as you say you must be one of the lucky few that got a better engine or the system breathes better (less restrictions) thereby produces more power.

    R2D2: 171.9 is very good for a remap.

    I'm having a conversation with Upsolute about doing a C200 k remap on my C180k.
    The discussion is focused on the likely effect of running a map for a lower compression ratio on my C180k . C180 has a compression ratio of 10.2:1 but the C200 has a compression ratio of 9.5:1. Comments and advice welcome!

    R2D2; Demodded Dyno Run

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    OK. All in the name of science. I went to a racing team called Rapidchariots near Canterbury and they Dynoed my car in its standard form. ie. No remap, no fancy petrol, no fancy airfilter. The only mod was Sprintbooster which adds no bhp.

    The dyno I used before is an old fashioned one at Sanspeed but this one was like a lab! We discussed accuracy and I believe that their hugely complex kit is going to give me the best the most accurate figures I'm likely to get.

    The revs recorded on the graph are on the wrong scale but without any mods. You can see that max power was 148.9bhp and at the wheels 123.7bhp.

    Kjay; Good result from your 180K ! And good to get a benchmark with everything standard.

    The last gragh shows the AFR (air/fuel ratio) or mixture.

    I think the ECU alters this consantly depending on conditions such as load and heat. (I think?).


    I think the graph shows the mixture is richer as the engine was accelerating, then leaning off when max revs were reached?
    Or, is that the other way round?
     
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  6. C43AMG

    C43AMG MB Club Veteran

    Messages:
    6,858
    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2005
    Location:
    Weybridge. U.K
    Car:
    500L ( W221 ), 2014 AMG CL 5.5 Biturbo ( W216 ) 2014 Brabus Smart ( 451 Coupe ) Mapped 130bhp
    Thanks for the time and effort Greg.
     
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  7. OP
    OP
    R2D2

    R2D2 MB Club Veteran

    Messages:
    6,935
    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2004
    Car:
    C350
    R2D2: Update: Several of us on here have dealt with Simon Coe from CCC who is the UK agent for Upsolute. Simon and I have been exploring the idea of being able to turn a C180k M271 into a C200k M271 by means of remapping alone.
    The challenge is to get from 143bhp to 163bhp without damaging anything. The two cars differ only in the exact pistons used making the compression ratio in the C200 slightly lower.

    C180k has a compression ratio of 10.2:1
    C200k has a compression ratio of 9.5:1

    ie. compression ratio is only 7% lower in a c200 and everything else including the supercharger is the same.

    Upsolute say that it is doable and safely doable and the Simon, Upsolute and I are working on it. Guess whose car is going to be a guinea pig.

    The clue as to what to do comes from the W204 which also uses the M271 and in C180k guise produces 156bhp and in C200k guise 184bhp. The new c180k has a compression ratio of 9.3 :1- I suspect that the "new" c180k is in fact a detuned "old C200k"

    If anyone could compare on an ECP a C180k w203046 with a W204 C180K specifically the pistons and the supercharger that would be very helpful!

    Obviously if we manage to do c180k to c200k then c200k to c230 k will be next (for a c200 obviosly not a C180k- althoufh Kleemann claim 143 to 193bhp for their k box!)

    KJay: Details from EPC.

    Not sure what the 'optional with' means. Crops up all the time in EPC - perhaps someone can explain??




    -------------------------------------------------------
    C180K 203046


    Piston:
    Part No. A271 030 25 17
    A271 030 21 17 optional with A271 030 41 17
    A271 030 41 17 optional with A271 030 21 17


    Kompressor
    Part No. A271 030 17 80 replaced by..
    A271 030 20 80 replaced by...
    A271 030 23 80 replaced by...
    A271 030 26 80.

    ---------------------------------------------------------

    C180 204046


    Piston:
    Part No. A271 030 22 17 optional with A271 030 42 17
    A271 030 42 17 optional with A271 030 22 17


    Kompressor:
    Part No. A271 030 26 80

    The crank and con rods are the same part numbers for above models.

    R2D2: Thanks for checking. So basically they have changed the numbers and possiblt the pistons to alter the compression ratio. Hmmm

    TuDu; I would be wary of messing around with ECU remaps. As you know my reason remap (dynoed) gave 172 BHP thats a 9% increase over standard. Even with the Kleemann header and cat i doubt if my car has achieved the quoted 10-15% BHP increase given by Kleemann. If so, that would mean my car at 10% increase would be at 182BHP. Fitting the Kleemann performance kit - pulleys and K Box Kleemann reckon 230BHP (with the header and cat as well) for the C200K (M271 1.8). I am sceptical if my car will achieve the 230 BHP figure i think it will be much nearer to 195 - 197 although i would be happy if it topped the 200BHP barrier.

    From guesswork remaps cause an engine to rev higher - i am just unsure what the long term damage that might be caused by remapping alone on an engine. Although, if it works it would need a bit of time to fully evaluate its potential before i was willing to do it.

    Tudu; Sorry, i forgot you took of your original remap, and confirmed that you were one of the lucky ones that had an engine that performed above standard. If your guy can configure a remap on a C180 (143BHP) to C220K (163BHP) then that is good going.

    Angel Tuning did my remap hence the 9% increase even though on their website for my engine it quotes 15-25% increase. I still think other than a remap more would need to be done to an engine to increase power i.e. cam, pistons, pulleys etc but we are talking mega bucks. Having already spent over £3,000.00 with Kleemann (yet to be tested) if i wanted to go beyond 230BHP (if my car achieves what Kleemann state) then i need to seriously consider changing my car to a 320 as the cost would not justify the means. If my car achieves 190 - 200BHP by way of Kleemann then i will be happy, if not then i have taken my car to the limits of my budget and will be happy to continue to drive it in the knowledge that it has added to what can be done to the M271 C200K (163BHP) engine.

    The case for the remap would be a far more inexpensive option and will be followed with great interest.

    Taylor 192; OK I read several pages of "remap" and think everyone needs to take a breath and rethink.

    The Siemens ECU allows for minimal gains with a remap, this is why Kleemann offers the K-box. There is a thread on MBW that explains why the Siemens ECU cannot be tinkered with drastically, and what the K-box might do.

    So anyone considering a pulley and a remap, you will see lots of gains at the low end, yet not much at the high end when the ECU nanny kicks in.

    Rather than waste money remapping your ECU, I'd contact Kleeman and buy the K-box.

    Taylor 192: Here is what I am running:
    Renntech pulley (15psi)
    Iridium plugs (1 step colder)
    Brabus cat-back exhaust

    I notice a definite increase at the low end, little at the high end.
    I have a 6sp, so shifting is much nicer with more power at lower RPMs (2-3K) and in the power band (3.5-4.5K). I don't often drive at 5K+.

    I have not bothered with a remap cause of reading Speedwerks thread on MBW and JPs mods. I felt it was a lot of time and money (there is no MB tuner in my hometown) for little gain, and a Renntech representative confirmed a remap is not necessary with the pulley for the engine to operate safely.

    The only way to gain more power is to fool the ECU by changing the MAF output, fool the fuel pump to deliver more, and larger injectors. This is what the K-Box apparently does.

    ---

    JP (mig888 on MBW) had a custom 4-1 header made that I tried out. The shop that installed it commented that the join at the 4-1 was different than other headers they'd seen. The design caused the header to hot-spot at that location, burning through welds and burning up the cat. Drex had the header, with a remap of the ECU his didn't burn through at the same rate as mine, yet had developed a leak at the same location, most likely from burning through welds.

    If you want a header, get the Kleemann. I paid $1500 USD for JP's custom header (he originally offered it at $1100-1200 USD). The Kleemann header was recently on sale for $1100 USD.

    ---

    There is a thread on MBFanatics.org where a shop in Toronto is building a M271 from the ground up for a CL230 coupe that is the race car for my dealership. They are aiming for 300hp, so I am following their progress as I bet this will not be achievable without running standalone.

    Tudu; Quote:
    Originally Posted by taylor192
    I meant it for those who wish to buy a pulley, change the exhaust, intake, ... that those mods would be best with the K-Box, thus why Kleemann sells it as a kit.

    I wish they sold it separately, I could use it with my Renntech pulley.

    Sorry. Yes i agree. I already have the Kleemann header and sports cat and have had a custom free flow dual exhaust system made up to link to the Kleemann. My next major mod is to fit the Kleemann performance kit, which with the header and cat Kleemann claim 230BHP (for my C200K 163 BHP). I doubt very much judging by the increase felt since fitting the header, cat and having the exhaust system fitted that i am near to even 180 - 190 BHP, which means that the performance kit will have to deliver between 40 - 50 BHP increase. However, a dyno before and after should tell whether Kleemann products are worth the money, as in terms of quality i cannot fault them.


    Tudu; The Kleemann header and cat in my opinion is an excellent piece of kit in terms of quality and performance though i am still sceptical of the advertised 20% BHP increase. Only my pre-dyno will tell in a few weeks time when i fit the Kleemann performance kit, again Kleemann state that with both the header, cat (stage 1) and the performance kit (stage 2) my car should produce 230 BHP. At the moment with a remap which was dynoed at 172 BHP (from 163), and the custom exhaust system, i need from the Kleemann header, cat and performance kit an increase of 58% to achieve 230. At this moment i am unsure, but even i achieve 200 i would still be happy. Will keep posted, as want to get the paddle shift mod sorted first.

    Taylor192: Quote:
    Originally Posted by R2D2
    Hmmm. Not sure that is quiet true- my car has previosly had an Upsolute remap which did make it a bit quicker and also improved MPG if I was on a cruise rather than charging around.

    I think it is possible to get say 7-8 % extra bhp from a remap but not 40bhp like come claim. The K box claims to get around these problems but I've heard that they can be unreliable. Have you got a k box tatlor? Cheers.

    I have the Renntech pulley, and that ups boost from 11 to 15psi. That should equate to a huge increase, 20-30 hp, yet only dyno'd at 5hp at the top end, yet 20-30 at the low end.

    Why?

    ECU nanny. The ECU does not like the extra boost, detects it and backs off. The remap cannot compensate for what the ECU does. This is why the K-Box is required, to circumvent the ECU nanny.

    I do not have the K-Box. I want one!

    R2d2; So basically every engine mod is a waste of time until we have a K Box (£750 )

    Taylor192; Not exactly.

    You'll get lots of low-end gains, just no top-end.
    If you're looking to brag about high-hp numbers, then yes, engine mods are a waste.
    Personally I do not drive around at 5-6K rpms, so 10-20 hp from 2-4K rpms is certainly worthwhile, especially on the M271 which needs more low-end torque to help the 6sp feel better.

    Yet there's potential for a lot more without the ECU nanny, so any mod you do will not achieve the gains it could.

    Petje : Kleeman just answered my email, for the W204 they sell the K-box without the pulley, for €1150,00 + VAT.

    So may b that will be my next step after the Brabus exhaust and SprintBooster.

    For my C180 kompressor W204 they say it will give me a + 20/25 hp only with the K-box.....

    Tudu: That seems a lot of money for only 20-25 increase in BHP. I personally wouldn't do it. As far as i know Kleemann do the full performance kit for the W204, but don't know how much costs differ for W203 which is £1,450.00 plus VAT.

    Petje; Yes this is much for 20-25 hp, i have also contacted MKB-power, they claim that my W204 goes from 156 hp to 187 hp by only remapping my ECU without another pully.

    Cost me €1461 + VAT

    I have already contacted many tuners over here, they al say the same:
    Remapping is usefull WITH another pully, so it's strange that MKB-power is the only one who claims so much without the pulley.

    Also ART-Tuning claimes 186hp by only remapping and another air filter, cost me € 1590 + VAT

    So Kleeman is the cheapest and best solution so far, and it's easy to install....

    And otherwise, i keep on driving with my standaard 156 hp....

    Tudu;
    Angel Tuning who did my remap claimed an increase of 25BHP for the M271 1.8 (C200K). I recently had my car dynoed prior to fitting header and cat and it was 172BHP. 163 BHP is standard for my car so thats an increase of 9 BHP. However, since installing sprintbooster it seems faster and much more freer but only another dyno will tell before and after fitting the performance kit.


    Yeahhhhhh yesterday i received my Brabus exhaust.......

    I have fitted it under the car this morning.
    It fits exactly, SUPER. I only had to take a hole out of my rear bumper for the exhaust on the right side.

    Tudu: Originally Posted by Smatt
    Hi,

    What was the outcome of the kleeman kit tudu, or has the AMG diverted your attention??

    Hi, i have the performance kit but just haven't had the time to get it fitted. As to the C55, i have recently laid it up as i do a lot of mileage (apart from weekends) so have switched back to driving the C200K, so may well get Olly to fit the performance kit for me sometime in the new year.

    Petje:Yes, i finaly ordered my Kleemann Headers and Cat for my W204.....

    Will receive it by next week!!


    @ Tudu, congrats with the C55, NICE CAR

    (a little late but i havent been here sinds last year)


    So now my exhaust is complete, Kleemann headers and cat and the Brabus exhaust on the end!!!

    Thanks to Steen Greve from SKG Performance (Kleemann UK)

    He was very helpfull and answered my questions quick!!

    Recieved the Headers and Cat in 2 days.....

    Will fit it on my car on monday, i will try to make some pictures so people can see how to install it on the W204 (M271)

    Must say the price of the headers is REDUCED a lot.

    Last year i was thinking of doing it but it was expensive!!

    in 2008 the headers where about £ 2050,00+VAT+SHIPPING

    Now the new price for the headers+Cat for the M271 engine is:

    £ 995,00 + VAT + Shipping (Kleemann UK)
    Has the header made any difference??

    I have a C180k 2004 and have already had the k-box fitted which has made a small improvement. But not nearly as drastic as Kleemann claim!
    Do you have a price list for the header + cat as when I had the k box fitted back in 2008 the header was going to cost around £1800. So is the official price now £995 for header and cat? Or was this a private deal you made with Steen?
    Where are you going to get it fitted out of intrest as I can not decide whether to get it fitted with SKG Performance or not?

    On a seperate issue, I am wanting to lower my c180k to improve handling and looks. Anyone have any good ideas what suspension to use, I was thinking along the lines of KW variant 1, but it's not cheap at £995 + fitting. So I am thinking more along the lines of just replacing the springs??
    Or, the other option is to get the MB sport suspension which is about 1.5cm lower than standard.

    Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

    Blueserenity777: had the Kbox fitted first and later the header and sports cat..the header and cat improves the mid range pickup..so overall makes the engine perform a lot better..sound is slightly different as well..it is nice although not cheap as I did it last year as well..

    I am curious to know what the brabus exhaust sound like hooked up to Kleemann header and cat..did you keep the centre boxes removed..

    Lindselld; After fitting the k-box I have had a custom exhaust fitted form the cat. But after a week it was deafening me so I had a silencer fitted which made a bit of difference but is still a bit to load for my liking. Any ideas how to quieten it down further?

    Petje: Is "£995,00 + VAT + Shipping (Kleemann UK)" officially the new price or was this a special dial you arranged?

    Suspension:
    I am ideally after the Kleemann Speed Sensitive suspension, but have just found out it has been discontinued!! Don't suppose anyone knows of one for sale?
    Also any ideas if KW springs are available for w203 coupe? Can only seem to find the full variant 1,2,3 packs.

    After fitting the k-box I have had a custom exhaust fitted form the cat. But after a week it was deafening me so I had a silencer fitted which made a bit of difference but is still a bit to load for my liking. Any ideas how to quieten it down further?

    I was thinking of a Brabus rear silencer with mid MB stock hooked to the kleeman cat,header..but have since decided to look into and AMG twin pipe rear silencer hooked to MB stock middle..

    What is your opinion on this..

    Lindselld: I have already invested in a custom stainless steel exhaust system from the cat. I am having the kleemann header and sports cat fitted next week to go with the k-box fitted last year. Thus I would be reluctant to replace an expensive mod I have already made.

    After the header has been fitted I will re-asses the noise level. If it is still too loud then I hope the kleemann mechanic might have a solution for me. If not what else could be done? As I have said, I have already had a silencer fitted.

    Have you managed to take any pics of the car with the kleemann goodies on?

    Anyone have a sprint booster fitted or have an opinion on it?

    Petje s Header:
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2011
    1 person likes this.
  8. OP
    OP
    R2D2

    R2D2 MB Club Veteran

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    C350
    Bobby Dazzler: Quote:
    Originally Posted by curly
    And this is the reply he gave ....

    If you are going to be getting a Brabus ECU upgrade, it is advised to remove the K-Box, and inform Brabus that you have a KLEEMANN boost pulley- they will be able to program your ECU properly. The K-Box is meant to work with stock programming, so you will not need to use it with an ECU tune- it may even cause a check engine light when used with a Tuned ECU file.


    What really surprised me in the reply was that K-box works with Stock Programming ( i always thought pulley and ecu programming gave me a big boost ) so if the pulley can work with tuned ECU than i will not only gain pulley improvement in my engine but also Ecu upgrade gains ( which ppl in this thread claim around 25 to 35 hp )

    do u guys think my above assessment is correct or do u think that i will only get one gain out of all this either be Ecu or Pulley !

    Thanks again

    Cory is saying that the K-Box is designed to work with the standard ECU settings. The K-Box is a piggy back box that alters the the signals whilst leaving the settings in the ECU as it was when the car left the factory.

    This has a similar affect to actually changing the settings in the ECU with a remap - just a different way of doing it, altering the signal after the source rather than at the source.

    The settings that the K-Box alters are to allow the uprated pulley you've fitted to produce the maximum gain possible using the standard ECU, and avoid the engine and it's sensors to operating outside of it's expected range and parameters, and avoid a Check Engine Light.

    However the K-Box is not designed to work with a modified ECU, ie a remap performed by Brabus or anyone else.

    If you think about it, if the K-Box was fitted to a remapped ECU then the K-Box would be altering a signal that was different to what the K-Box was expecting, and so is likely to cause the engine to operate outside of it's parameters, and hence may cause a Check Engine Light to show.

    The remap if done correctly should do the same job as the K-Box. It may even do it a touch better, but maybe a touch worse. No way of knowing - all depnds upon what type of map the new one is - if it's Brabus then it's likely to be a generic map, which may be no better than what you have.

    I hope that makes sense.
     
    1 person likes this.
  9. OP
    OP
    R2D2

    R2D2 MB Club Veteran

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    MAY 2010 UPDATE

    Mercedes have taken the M271 to a whole new plan with the C250 CGI version which I will write up in a bit. The gist is that the humble 1796cc M271 is now producing 204bhp and 50mpg! (I doubt we will complete that level of improvement. I presume that the new W212 250CGI also uses our "old" engine!


    The other developement is the fact that it looks as if the C180k engine and the C200k may in fact be the same. The follow posts and thoughts are the discussions I'm aware of.
    I'll remind anyone who gets this far that anything you try on your car is at your own risk and neither I or any of the contributors take any responsibility for your actions based on our mad ramblings.


    Miro came up with this research:

    “C180K, C200K conversion to C230K with M271 series 240, 246, 248
    After many hours of sifting through the data and checking 6 VINS against each other I can suggest the following findings about the M271.

    * If the engine is 2005 spec then it will be specially upgraded already with low noise parts that were recently introduced.

    * In all M271 2005 the 5 speed transmission is identical

    * In all M271 the crankcase and 5 speed auto slip ring are identical

    * all results exclude CGI and SLK for now.

    C180K, C200K and C230K differ in the following ways
    ---------------------------------------------------
    - piston
    - supercharger (only 2 models - one for 230K and one for others.
    - ECU (engine control unit)
    - Some differences in intercooler and hoses are possible with year of build.

    ….. There are two SuperChargers, two piston types and 3 ECU. You can make 3 variants with 2 x 2 combinations. Obviously there is no logical variant in the ECU as it is specific for a task (but there are 3 versions)

    I believe that in developer mode you can reset the engine type of the ECU.

    PISTON SC
    Low Low
    High Low
    High High

    This is not the real matrix but I am postulating that these compression combinations make the 3 engine types.”

    My own research has confirmed that 180 and 200 versions use Eaton M45 superchargers MB part number A271 090 2080 whereas 230 versions use A271 090 2181.

    Se97mlm added: “180k and 200k are identical, it's just the software in the ECU that limits the output (and maybe a pulley for the SC). That's why they are called internally m271 and m271red (red for reduced output)
    The 230k engine is called m271evo and has the different pistons etc.”

    The reason C230 version has different pistons is because the three main variants have different compression ratio.

    C180 has a compression ratio of 10.2:1
    C200 has a compression ratio of 9.5:1
    C230 has a compression ratio of 8.7:1

    Given that the each version has the same bore and stroke (82x85mm) the different compression ratios are achieved by the use of different pistons.



    Miro is saying that the M271 is the same as the M271 red (reduced) or C180k version except for Pistons.

    Se97mlm is saying: “180k and 200k are identical, it's just the software in the ECU that limits the output (and maybe a pulley for the SC). That's why they are called internally m271 and m271red (red for reduced output)
    The 230k engine is called m271evo and has the different pistons etc.”

    KJAY: checked the EPC and came up with:
    C180K 203046


    Piston:
    Part No. A271 030 25 17
    A271 030 21 17 optional with A271 030 41 17
    A271 030 41 17 optional with A271 030 21 17


    Kompressor
    Part No. A271 030 17 80 replaced by..
    A271 030 20 80 replaced by...
    A271 030 23 80 replaced by...
    A271 030 26 80.

    C180 204046

    Piston:
    Part No. A271 030 22 17 optional with A271 030 42 17
    A271 030 42 17 optional with A271 030 22 17

    Kompressor:
    Part No. A271 030 26 80

    The crank and con rods are the same part numbers for above models

    Druk: checked EPC and found,
    Regardless. 042 and 046 share the same part numbers for the compressor and the pistons.
    A271-090-26-80 for the compressor and
    A271-030-25-17 for the pistons.

    there are three alternative numbers for both engine pistons but they all agree so I wont list them.

    I need to go out but I'll continue in a bit!
     
    2 people like this.
  10. OP
    OP
    R2D2

    R2D2 MB Club Veteran

    Messages:
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    C350
    Therefore Miro and Kjay say that the pistons in the C200 or 203040 are different from those in a C180k 203046...

    But Se97elm and a leading tuner who I can't name without there permission say they are identical.

    So we have a dilema, if the two engines are identical then they have different outputs and economy only by ECU control -by definition there compression ratios must be the same as they use the same parts.

    If the compression ratios are different then they must use different pistons to achieve that as they have the same conrods etc.

    I have e mails out to every engine authority I know to decide what the truth is...... but just to add a little more evidence to the theory. Dronsfield are advertising this: Product ID: 271 NEW Mercedes Kompressor Engine (271)
    New Mercedes Kompressor Engine.
    Engine number starting with: 271.
    Suitable for 4 cylinder kompressor models 2003>. (ie it doesn't say C180, c200 etc)
    Please check engine is suitable before you purchase.
    12 months unlimited mileage warranty.
    Price: £3,000.00
    photo belongs to dronsfield
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2011
    2 people like this.
  11. OP
    OP
    R2D2

    R2D2 MB Club Veteran

    Messages:
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    Lots of standard size pistons????

    5 a 2710300220 connecting rod
    5 a 2710300620 connecting rod
    5 a 2710301020 connecting rod
    8 a 2710380050 piston pin bushing
    14 a 1370380071 bolt
    23 a 2710380111 connectg.rod bearg.shell
    standard
    40 a 2710304817 piston
    standard size

    013: When ordering for production auxiliary stage, enter supplementary code 58
    40 a 2710302217 piston

    013: When ordering for production auxiliary stage, enter supplementary code 58

    40 a 2710304217 piston

    013: When ordering for production auxiliary stage, enter supplementary

    40 a 2710302417 piston
    standard size

    013: When ordering for production auxiliary stage, enter supplementary

    40 a 2710302717 piston
    standard size

    013: When ordering for production auxiliary stage, enter supplementary code 58

    a 2710302117 piston
    standard size

    013: When ordering for production auxiliary stage, enter supplementary code 58

    40 a 2710304117 piston
    standard size
    013: When ordering for production auxiliary stage, enter supplementary code 58
    40 a 2710302317 piston
    standard size
    013: When ordering for production auxiliary stage, enter supplementary code 58
    40 a 2710302317 piston
    standard size
    013: When ordering for production auxiliary stage, enter supplementary code 58
    40 a 2710302517 piston
    standard size
    013: When ordering for production auxiliary stage, enter supplementary code 58
    40 a 2710302517 piston
    standard size
    013: When ordering for production auxiliary stage, enter supplementary code 58
    40 a 2710302217 piston
    standard size
    013: When ordering for production auxiliary stage, enter supplementary code 58
    40 a 2710304217 piston
    standard size
    013: When ordering for production auxiliary stage, enter supplementary code 58
    40 a 2710302217 piston
    013: When ordering for production auxiliary stage, enter supplementary code 58
    40 a 2710304217 piston
    013: When ordering for production auxiliary stage, enter supplementary code 58
    50 a 2710300024 ts piston ring parts kit
    cylinder bore diameter ---- 4 цена
    50 a 2710300024 ts piston ring parts kit
    cylinder bore diameter ---- 4 цена
    50 a 2710300224 ts piston ring parts kit
    cylinder bore diameter ---- 4 цена
    50 a 2710300124 ts piston ring parts kit
    cylinder bore diameter ---- 4 цена
    50 a 2710300124 ts piston ring parts kit
    cylinder bore diameter ---- 4 цена
    70 n 073130020100 snap ring ---- 4 цена
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2011
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  12. OP
    OP
    R2D2

    R2D2 MB Club Veteran

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    Ahh the proof-different part numbers!! Can someone provide PROOF that the compression ratios are different?? (ie that the parts aren't identical but with different numbers!)
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2011
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  13. OP
    OP
    R2D2

    R2D2 MB Club Veteran

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    Another pic
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2011
    2 people like this.
  14. OP
    OP
    R2D2

    R2D2 MB Club Veteran

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    As of right now I believe that the C180k cannot be easily modded to the C220k because of the different pistons. However, I have experts who are seeking clarification in Germany, Holland the US and MB here. We will get to the bottom of what is possible!
     
    1 person likes this.
  15. Koolvin

    Koolvin Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
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    Staines
    Car:
    W168, W169 & S202
    Great thread, MBenzNL (Steve) told me the same thing, I believe he was working on unlocking the ECU a few years ago. - Steve is THE authority on all things MB IMHO.
     
    1 person likes this.
  16. OP
    OP
    R2D2

    R2D2 MB Club Veteran

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    Did he confirm that they were the same or that the pistons were the only difference apart from ECU? Cheers
     
  17. Koolvin

    Koolvin Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
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    Car:
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    send him a PM or email him and report back :)
     
  18. OP
    OP
    R2D2

    R2D2 MB Club Veteran

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    Just had a reply from Steve at MBenzNL. He has not done the mod from C180k to C200k but has a request to do the C200 cdi to C220CDi conversion. Someone else can do that thread!
     
  19. Toadshall

    Toadshall New Member

    Messages:
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    Joined:
    May 7, 2010
    Location:
    Nr Midhurst, West Sussex
    Car:
    C200K model 203
    I notice re this engines description by R2D2 that the crankcase is cast iron and the cylinder head cast aluminium. In other descriptions, ie Wikipedia, it describes the crankcase as cast aluminium alloy.

    My underlying reason for raising this is related to the life of the cylinder head gasket. During the final years of the 271's predecessor, the 111, this earlier engines bmep was progressively increased via capacity and Kompressor boost increases.

    The cylinder head gasket of these later 111 engines with higher bmep's seem to of had a low milage life of around 100K. The likely reason for the gaskets failure is a high engine output combined with dissimilar materials resulting in differential expansion and gasket movement. With the greater specfic outputs per litre of the 271 engine, I would be very surprised if this engine had a cast iron block.

    Irrespective of the above the industry is trying to drive down overall vehicle weights, which would tend to point to lighter materials usage.

    Regards,

    Toadshall
     
  20. OP
    OP
    R2D2

    R2D2 MB Club Veteran

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    Guys like BlackC55 and Ian walker may be able to comment both about construction and reliability. My friendly MB mechanic says that 99% of M271 engines run very well without many issues but that is you get a problem it is a complex engine to work on and can take a while to fix. I'm not aware of any gasket issues but others may add there experience.
     

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