The Jeremy Debate, Vine & Clarkson that is.

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m80

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Emotive and polarised I'm trying to decide if I'm surprised, bearing in mind that the the increase in incidents is during a period of greatly reduced car use


But the article fails to recognise that during that lockdown period there was a massive increase in the numbers of people driving to rural locations. Some with bikes on / in the back, to ride when they got there.
Remember the Snowdonia traffic issues? Certainly The Peak District experienced similar.
 
Emotive and polarised I'm trying to decide if I'm surprised, bearing in mind that the the increase in incidents is during a period of greatly reduced car use

I live in a rural area which was not a particularly popular destination for exercise during lockdown. I do a 3 mile walk most days some of which is on rural roads. It was my observation during the lockdowns that the number of cyclists increased dramatically and at the same time many of those that continued to drive did so quite recklessly. I'm not sure why driving standards reduced so much, if I was being unkind I'd suggest it was mostly younger drivers who in general didn't feel the need to observe government guidance and reveled in the empty roads. I was young once and I can remember what it was like to drive on empty roads for example on Christmas day so I'm not surprised at the drivers behavior or the increased accidents and deaths.
 
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One of the ironies of the road traffic enforcement regime over the last few decades is that the most likely place to gain a sanction for driving above the speed limit is on the very roads where it is safest to do so: motorways and other high-quality roads. And many of the high-quality non-motorway roads have been subjected to reduced speed limits as a matter of policy, further increasing the likelihood of sanction. That means that those who wish to explore the performance of their vehicle are more likely to do so on the roads least suited to that - for the most part, rural roads - as the likelihood of legal sanction for doing so is lowest.

I'm not condoning exceeding the speed limit, but do make the point that exceeding the speed limit and driving at a speed inappropriate for the circumstances are absolutely not one and the same thing. When limits are increasingly set low for reasons other than safety, that is even more true.

Ultimately, it's not speed per se that is the cause of carnage, it is the speed differential. Pedestrians, cyclists and horse riders move slowest, while motorised vehicles can move much faster, hence those driving motorised vehicles bear great responsibility to do so safely. But it is also incumbent on other road users to recognise that they have a responsibility too. In my experience (living in a rural area) far too many cyclists and horse riders believe and act as though they have no responsibility to minimise their own risk of coming to harm when using the road.
 
Cycling is a very healthy pursuit until either you fall off or someone knocks you off Most cyclists i know can recount some horrific accidents to themselves or friends i know one spinal / broken neck and two that were told they'd never ride again
I ride for leisure during the summer but i avoid speeding and roads without a cycle lane where possible
 
Ultimately, it's not speed per se that is the cause of carnage, it is the speed differential. Pedestrians, cyclists and horse riders move slowest, while motorised vehicles can move much faster, hence those driving motorised vehicles bear great responsibility to do so safely. But it is also incumbent on other road users to recognise that they have a responsibility too. In my experience (living in a rural area) far too many cyclists and horse riders believe and act as though they have no responsibility to minimise their own risk of coming to harm when using the road.

I used to ride a bicycle on rural roads around the village where I grew up. It wasn't seen as risk free then. But I wouldn't cycle on those same roads today - it feels like the cars and vans and trucks are faster and wider and that there is less space.
 
it feels like the cars and vans and trucks are faster and wider and that there is less space
They are faster and wider and there is less space, partly due to increased traffic volumes. Your reluctance to cycle on those roads today is indicative that you have made a personal risk assessment that you have acted upon.

As a (very) senior Police officer friend of mine who was a competitive road racing cyclist said years ago after he was nearly knocked off his bike by a truck on the A2 dual carriageway in south London (at the time the speed limit on that section was 70mph), "My first thought was to report the truck driver. Then I thought about my own contribution to the event and concluded that just because it was legal for me to cycle on that road didn't make it a sensible thing to do".

I ride motorcycles and accept that I am therefore a vulnerable road user. I concern myself less with what I consider are "my rights" on the road than with how to minimise my personal risk and remain safe. Perhaps if all road users were to concentrate on the risks that they can control (or at least influence) we would be in a better place? "Rights" don't count for much when you're laid on a trolley in A&E...
 
Perhaps if all road users were to concentrate on the risks that they can control (or at least influence) we would be in a better place? "Rights" don't count for much when you're laid on a trolley in A&E...

I can see the majority of occasional recreational cyclists making sensible risk assessments about when and where they cycle.

The cyclists that I see putting themselves most at risk are what I will call fanatical cyclists. It must be the cycling equivalent of runners high that makes them happily mix with high speed traffic on some notoriously dangerous roads where their cycling skill counts for nothing in the face of other road users. I personally know of two cyclists killed in those sort of circumstances. One by the ubiquitous left turning HGV and the other by an out of control car taking a bend on the wrong side of the road. Experienced motorcyclists are usually acutely aware of their vulnerability in the face of other road users making poor decisions. Perhaps it's their sense on entitlement, but whatever the reason, I don't see much evidence of fanatical cyclists making those sensible risk assessments.

On balance I think the recent trend to endow cyclists with a sense of entitlement is not necessarily an automatic improvement to their safety.
 
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They are faster and wider and there is less space, partly due to increased traffic volumes. Your reluctance to cycle on those roads today is indicative that you have made a personal risk assessment that you have acted upon.

As a (very) senior Police officer friend of mine who was a competitive road racing cyclist said years ago after he was nearly knocked off his bike by a truck on the A2 dual carriageway in south London (at the time the speed limit on that section was 70mph), "My first thought was to report the truck driver. Then I thought about my own contribution to the event and concluded that just because it was legal for me to cycle on that road didn't make it a sensible thing to do".

I ride motorcycles and accept that I am therefore a vulnerable road user. I concern myself less with what I consider are "my rights" on the road than with how to minimise my personal risk and remain safe. Perhaps if all road users were to concentrate on the risks that they can control (or at least influence) we would be in a better place? "Rights" don't count for much when you're laid on a trolley in A&E...

The A2 is somewhat a 3 lane motorway in all but title. The phrase "just because you can doesn't mean you should" has never been more appropriate. Every time I see a cyclist on the A2 (99% wearing lycra) I just think, pious ****.
 
As a callow teenager in the 80's we would cycle Birmingham to Weston super Mare and back in a day. The majority of that was down the A38.. Wild horses would not get me doing it now on the same roads
 
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As a callow teenager in the 80's we would cycle Birmingham to Weston super Mare and back in a day. The majority of that was down the A38.. Wild horses would not get me doing it now on the same roads

Blimming 'eck, that's some distance!
 
Having been a cyclist, a motor cyclist, a car driver and having driven a number of small commercial vehicles, I still drive cars and I'm still a summer-time cyclist.
I came back to cycling during the first UK lock-down, when the present Ms. J. suggested I got my old bike fettled-up and back on the road.
Pity it had been sitting in the garage for 30 years ... What a mess !
It was lock-down - I needed a project.
Having come back to cycling, I am pretty apalled by the disregard of some cyclists for their own safety.
I am also pretty apalled by the disregard by many (not all) vehicle drivers for the safety of myself when cycling.
Having a foot in both camps, I do try to give cyclists every consideration.
BUT - I'm afraid that some of them (the "warriors") don't help themselves and seem to consider it a point of principle to display a righteous arrogance in their behaviour.

As for Vine v. Clarkson ...... I can't stand either of them.
 
Having come back to cycling, I am pretty apalled by the disregard of some cyclists for their own safety.
What gets me is that most will be drivers as well.
There seems to be a fish memory in that the disregard for motorised transport gets ignored when the Lycra goes on.

Not all though as I am seeing more that will travel single file and space out some.

I feel for the considerate cyclist as I'm not seeing where they can enjoy the exercise safely these days.

It's back to my continual winge. Too many people, not enough space.
 
BUT - I'm afraid that some of them (the "warriors") don't help themselves and seem to consider it a point of principle to display a righteous arrogance in their behaviour.

.........
They do not help themselves. In York yesterday guy on his bike just put his arm out to indicate he was going right and immediately crossed the lane without even looking back.

Seems that the pressure from lycra on their nuts and nether region, destroys their sense of self preservation.
 
They do not help themselves. In York yesterday guy on his bike just put his arm out to indicate he was going right and immediately crossed the lane without even looking back.

Seems that the pressure from lycra on their nuts and nether region, destroys their sense of self preservation.

Well I had a Range Rover pull out on me - wrong side of road because he had to turn out of a junction with a parked car almost opposite. His attitude was that it was my fault that he hit me almost head on and had to actually brake. (as I also had to).

And another example - about 75m behind SWMBO as we head down to a roundabout - a pickup passes me leaving little room and then as SWMBO is about to enter roundabout pickup overtakes on entry to the roundabout and turns left across her to take the first exit forcing her to brake to avoid going under the side of the pickup.

Problem with the rule making out there is that the bad cyclists and bad motorists who make problems for others seem to get away scott free while any tighternng of rules will disproportionately make the wrong type of cyclists more self righteous and reckless while disproportionately penalising considerate drivers who make a minor mistake or get caught out by a bad cyclist.

It doesn't help that councils are causing issues even where there is pedestrian/cycllist/mororist separation the implementation is haphazard for cyclists and typically punitive to pedestrians or motorists.
 
Well I had a Range Rover pull out on me - wrong side of road because he had to turn out of a junction with a parked car almost opposite. His attitude was that it was my fault that he hit me almost head on and had to actually brake. (as I also had to).

And another example - about 75m behind SWMBO as we head down to a roundabout - a pickup passes me leaving little room and then as SWMBO is about to enter roundabout pickup overtakes on entry to the roundabout and turns left across her to take the first exit forcing her to brake to avoid going under the side of the pickup.

Problem with the rule making out there is that the bad cyclists and bad motorists who make problems for others seem to get away scott free while any tighternng of rules will disproportionately make the wrong type of cyclists more self righteous and reckless while disproportionately penalising considerate drivers who make a minor mistake or get caught out by a bad cyclist.

It doesn't help that councils are causing issues even where there is pedestrian/cycllist/mororist separation the implementation is haphazard for cyclists and typically punitive to pedestrians or motorists.
We’re the 2 drivers bald headed men with tattoos?
 
Well I had a Range Rover pull out on me - wrong side of road because he had to turn out of a junction with a parked car almost opposite. His attitude was that it was my fault that he hit me almost head on and had to actually brake. (as I also had to).
I’m constantly surprisd at the number of cyclists that arrogantly put themselves in danger, wear dark clothing & have poor lighting. If I had to ride a bike, I’d look like an ambulance going to an emergency.

Presumably, the average cyclist is as stupid as the average motorist and that is a combination that is bound to end in tears (mainly for the cyclist) .
 

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