The Law as a career.

[neilrr]

My daughter, in her 3rd year at a Russell Group university & heading for a good History degree is considering doing a conversion course & becoming a solicitor.

She's talked to people in the legal profession & just completed a week's work experience at a household name global entertainment company's legal department.

The overriding impression she now has of solicitors & the those involved in the legal field is that they & it are full of people who hate their job, who do it only for the money & who wish they had taken a different path in life, in some cases ANY different path. She was introduced in one meeting as "XXX, considering becoming a solicitor" only for one of the senior people in attendance to quip "She won't be after this week!"

Admittedly these people deal in contract law which may not be the most interesting field, but can anyone who is a solicitor, barrister, judge, clerk of the court etc tell me, is this normal?

 

[C240Sport97]

law can be fun .. law is in all sectors, so it provides the opportunity to get into any sector that you are interested in.

 

[MancMike]

Those in the profession will obviously know better, and you know your daughter better than I , but in her naivety, is she just not picking up on the typical British self-deprecation, and it's tarnished any glamour (i.e Suits TV series) she'd envisioned in the profession?

Especially given she appears to be more interested in corporate law than criminal law.

 

[brucemillar]

One of my many regrets is that I did not take up law when I should and could have done. I wanted to practice 'criminal law' but got lazy and greedy and didn't. I still retain an avid interest in that side of the law and still regret that young and foolish decision. I have spent my working life dealing with commercial/contract law and it is not the most interesting of fields to go into. It is a shame that your daughter has been fed a line (possibly in jest) that may well influence her chosen path. I would urge her to sit down with somebody who has a genuine interest in that side of the law to which she is drawn and have an open heart to heart talk. A lifetime of regret is hard to swallow.

 

[neilrr]

No, it's not self - dep, they actually do hate their jobs. Most started in private practice & went corporate / in house to gear down from the 80-90 hour weeks. Some to have kids, some because they were killing themselves, some because they couldn't see a clear path to partner, all because they hated it. One bloke in his early 40's was a sad case, having given his life to his career he now wanted a family but didn't even have a girlfriend. His job was his wife.

If anything she's more interested in Criminal law than anything else. The Corp / contract law placement was offered by a friend so she took up the offer to see what it was like & as something to put in her CV - the CV thing is a game they all have to play, such is the competition for places with good / big / magic circle firms. Whatever she does I doubt Corp will feature.

A barrister I know has told her there's no money in Criminal law now, though with the recent scandal over evidence withholding in serious cases that sounds like it needs reviewing.

 

[grober]

Has she thought about accountancy. If recent reports are anything to go by there's an increasing emphasis on creativity in that sector.

 

[Charles Morgan]

In house lawyering is tedious.

She should try and get a placement at a top City firm where the work is varied, but exceptionally hard. A top level career in any of the service sector requires very hard work, punishing hours and an acceptance that career takes over life until you are wealthy enough to do something different. I know lawyers who thoroughly enjoyed their work and others who were miserable. Same in any career.

Criminal law, be it solicitor or barrister, is hard work without the money as legal aid barely pays.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

It's good that she used the internship to gain insight into the trade. Obviously it's different if she sell side (Solicitors) or buy side (In-house legal). She needs to talk to more people five or ten years down the line and form her own views on the work, the commitment, and the lifetime potential, and to understand that many (most?) leave the trade within 10 years to move to non-legal roles. (Like Chartered Accounting, it's a pyramid)

However, it is grinding, competitive, long-hour work. It needs an obsessive interest in the detail. The rewards for a tiny group are insane, but those people are workaholic, self-motivated, extremely talented, attractive and personable, being prepared to work six days a week with some evenings off. The majority work long hours for a much more normal return.

It is a profession, and does carry clout when transferring into other trades, but you do need to be "the type."

The days of Russell Group University grads picking up great jobs with a manageable pace disappeared when every other entrant to the Work Market started carrying a degree certificate, very often a "First."

As she knows from her Greek Delphic history, Greek temples implore her to "know herself" and establish whether it's a good fit. As Socrates taught, "the unexamined life is not worth living."

 

[E53AMG]

Charles has it spot on, she needs a City Practice placement. I worked in Civil Litigation in a City Practice between 1980 and 2012, the consensus was those who moved in house were opting for a simpler life as they were passed over for Partnership.

I was very lucky to have trained under a Junior Partner at the time who as such had a wide variety of work from Contractual work through to intellectual property disputes, I was able to undertake minor advocacy work as well and felt I was being paid for a job I loved. As the 21st Century approached I become disillusioned with the pressures to meet time recording targets, disapproved of charging clients to take a dump and the whole game had become very political, I changed career internally around 2003 and took over running the firm's IT which was an autonomous role and relatively free from the political back biting and then in 2012 took redundancy due to outsourcing and paddled my own ship.

The large city practices will use her as a 12 hour shift slave basically until she makes Partnership then she can expect a 7 figure salary.

For a balance of variety, less pressure but good income look for a medium size practice maybe in the top 20-50 range from the Legal 500.



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[C240Sport97]

she should visit our criminal Courts and just watch what is going on

 

[C240Sport97]

In house lawyering is tedious.

mostly true, unless you join the Legal Department of a top notch multi national where work can be much more varied, and international secondments are possible

 

[Deleted96908]

My daughter is in the final months of her Masters at the Courtauld Institute. She too was considering doing the conversion course - although specialising in commercial art law. During her months of research, both in short term placements and by talking to folks already practicing, she came away thinking it might not be for her. Usual stories of long hours etc, but she was most put off by the number of recently qualified law graduates who are already looking to move onto something different.

So in my daughter’s case, she now hopes to work for one of the big auction houses, and has already been pre-interviewed by one or both of Christie’s and Sothebys (forget exactly) based on being at the Courtaulds.

Couple of other things to add, I met more than one History major whilst working in the City. It was (not sure if it still is ) one of those ‘if they are smart enough’ degrees that opened doors to many other opportunities.

On the other hand I have a neighbour whose daughter has just got a very good History Masters, but 6 months on is still looking for something vaguely related to her qualifications.

Best of luck to your daughter.

 

[E53AMG]

mostly true, unless you join the Legal Department of a top notch multi national where work can be much more varied, and international secondments are possible

Most City Law Firm placements will involve international travel, we had 6x international offices and Witness Statements can take you all over the place. I even got a tour of the Rolls Royce factory compliments of one of my clients!

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[alabbasi]

I think that like medicine , it's a career that starts by being seriously over worked and under paid. If you become good at what you do, you can grow and make a great living.

 

[C240Sport97]

I have been an in house lawyer for multinational organisations for about 2.5 decades ..

I have always worked (except the stint when I did M&A) and continue to work normal hours (I stay after 530pm at most 5 times a year) and am quite well paid. Money was important but it was not and is not the primary motivation.

I have mostly enjoyed my career, but now need a break. I would need a break (if not a whole lot earlier) now even if I was in another career.

In house lawyers have more responsibility, and can get intimately involved in operational and commercial issues (I do); which is what makes it fun for me. You can also outsource the dull and mundane stuff to law firms if your organisation understands your value.

Legal work can be challenging and rewarding; there are so many types of legal work. I enjoy complex contracts and negotiations, as well as dispute resolution. It's very much problem solving, a psychological exercise and requires a deep understanding of the underlying issues. In some industries, the law is constantly evolving. I even enjoy drafting sometimes ..

For me, your work life balance is up to you .. those who are miserable have probably not got that balance correct.

I have no regrets over my career .. it has suited me well based on what I was willing to put in and my interests.

Ultimately, law is hard work, but you can enjoy it and not overdo it. Others' experience is not necessarily a good guide on whether you will in fact enjoy a legal career.

 

[mattc]

Friend is a partner in a law firm in Brum. Probably earns £350-400k. Hates it with a passion and advises anyone who will listen not to take it up (inc. our daughter recently).

Cannot afford to get off the treadmill as family like all those weekend breaks in St. Petersburg, Dubrovnik etc (he never goes himself of course) and love their designer clothing.

Have told him more than once to get a grip and plan an exit otherwise we will be burying him early.

 

[Stratman]

My youngest brother, who lives in Edinburgh, was made redundant in his mid forties and took a two year accelerated law degree for a complete change of career. He is now doing his post degree on the job training as a solicitor and he loves it.

Poor as a church mouse but that doesn't bother him, he's happy in what he's doing.

 

[190]

My son is a Solicitor and now a Partner. Whether he is happy or not he works 12 hour days which can't be good when you have 3 young children. I'd hesitate to recommend it as a career on those grounds alone especially for women who might want a family at some point. There have to be easier ways to earn money. Come to think of it my other son works long hours too in a different profession. All I can say is they didn't get the example from me. With few exceptions I worked hard for 8 hours than went home to my family.

 

[neilrr]

Thanks to everyone for your comments, opinions etc.

 

[Lennox]

I've have and have had teams of lawyers working for and beside me in various roles. In general I would say they are well paid, over worked and not particularly happy people. But I value a good one above most other roles. Only my Pa's are worth more to me.

If she wants experience and the ability to go anywhere I would avoid an actual lawfirm and if possible get into a grad programme with one of the big 4 consulting firms.

I worked for the now largest firm and loved almost every day of it. The people awesome and the clients interesting.




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