The nightmare of charging in the UK

[Dryce]

Unlike other UK charging hubs, the Oxford Superhub will be directly connected to the National Grid's high-voltage transmission network, meaning it can charge large numbers of EVs without putting strain on the local electricity network."

Trouble is it's not the 'local electricity network' that is the biggest problem. It's the supply to the whole grid and the lack of contingency when the less reliable renewables don't renew and if there's more than one unplanned outage of major generation plant. Things are not great at the moment with only a few EVs.

Now if you had provided details of a report that the UK was about to build several more new large power stations over the next 10 years ..... then I might actually react positively.

 

[Dryce]

True. If others commit to universal standards it'll just be a disadvantage for those who don't follow. I actually wasn't aware Ionity was a collaboration between VW, BMW, Merc, and Ford. That's good to know. The market is heading in the right direction.

We're in a sort of V2000 vs VHS vs Betamax type situation at the moment.

Things become simpler for the buyer/customer after the standards battle is over - and there is just one left standing.

 

[Petrol Pete]

And by all accounts the Betamax was the superior format but lost out to VHS because VHS cost less......and ran longer . As for V2000 I think it just ran out of time to develop, and it was a bit pricey.

So Dryce your comparisons of EV's to video tapes is a good one .

 

[Bellow]

And by all accounts the Betamax was the superior format but lost out to VHS because VHS cost less......and ran longer . As for V2000 I think it just ran out of time to develop, and it was a bit pricey.

And by all accounts the EV was the superior format but lost out to ICE because ICE cost less......and ran longer . As for hydrogen I think it just ran out of time to develop, and it was a bit pricey.

Could it happen that way?

 

[m80]

Will EV's come down to an acceptable price for the majority? So far it isn't happening but still possible.

Will EV technology improve enough to provide vehicles that can cover desirable distance w/o the need for regular time consuming top ups?
For little cars that's a maybe, we're seeing improved figures already,. But for larger transport nope. Small vans not carrying too much is a possible but the figures from Ford for their new transit are laughable (actually it makes me wonder if Ford are delivering a message to the legislators).

The Gov't's have created a situation where vehicle manufacturers are caused to meet the dictated requirement or have nothing (or little) to sell. If the manufacturers fail the requirement will be deferred because the Gov't's can't be w/o the tax from them or the economy that is dependant on transport.

The next option for Gov't's to attempt to meet green targets is to permit road users and so restrict road travel. That is actually a travel permit in effect although you could jump on a train, but not with as much luggage as you might like.
I'm still wondering how they will supplement their lost tax from carbon fuel, but a little imagination is all that's needed there.

 

[raspy]

Will EV's come down to an acceptable price for the majority? So far it isn't happening but still possible.

Will EV technology improve enough to provide vehicles that can cover desirable distance w/o the need for regular time consuming top ups?
For little cars that's a maybe, we're seeing improved figures already,. But for larger transport nope. Small vans not carrying too much is a possible but the figures from Ford for their new transit are laughable (actually it makes me wonder if Ford are delivering a message to the legislators).

The Gov't's have created a situation where vehicle manufacturers are caused to meet the dictated requirement or have nothing (or little) to sell. If the manufacturers fail the requirement will be deferred because the Gov't's can't be w/o the tax from them or the economy that is dependant on transport.

The next option for Gov't's to attempt to meet green targets is to permit road users and so restrict road travel. That is actually a travel permit in effect although you could jump on a train, but not with as much luggage as you might like.
I'm still wondering how they will supplement their lost tax from carbon fuel, but a little imagination is all that's needed there.

@m80

When it comes to vans;

"The provisional fndings of the Department of Transport Professional Van Statistics 2019-20 survey showed that half of all vans (50%) in Great Britain stayed local, within 15 miles of their base, on a typical day. Just over a third of vans travelled regionally (34%), 14% travelled nationally and 1% internationally on a typical day."

What does "regionally" mean? Within 50 miles of where the van is based.

So on a typical day, 84% of vans in this country are travelling no more than 50 miles from where the van is based. Hmmm. Gosh, surely those people need a yet to be invented EV van that has a range of 500 miles? Actually, they don't.

Even within the giant country known as the USA, Ford's analysis of 30 million of commercial miles traveled in North America with its existing combustion engine Transit vans, revealed the average commercial van covers 74 miles a day.

I completely accept that some people genuinely need a car or van that can cover vast distances on a daily basis (and so EVs may never be a practical solution for them), but the data shows that in this country, the vast majority of vehicles are not doing hundreds of miles up and down the motorway.

 

[m80]

So on a typical day, 84% of vans in this country are travelling no more than 50 miles from where the van is based. Hmmm. Gosh, surely those people need a yet to be invented EV van that has a range of 500 miles? Actually, they don't.

Not all days are typical.
Not all van owners will have a choice of alternative transport on other days.

 

[Deleted member 159894]

Not all days are typical.
Not all van owners will have a choice of alternative transport on other days.

Vans are available for hire by the day.

 

[Dryce]

And by all accounts the EV was the superior format but lost out to ICE because ICE cost less......and ran longer .

You've just explained why EV is the inferior format.

And this is why it is being forced on us. Government regulation is being used to leverage it because the EV format cannot stand on its own - even now (how old is the Tesla S as a model - it's not that new).

 

[Bellow]

You've just explained why EV is the inferior format.

And this is why it is being forced on us. Government regulation is being used to leverage it because the EV format cannot stand on its own - even now (how old is the Tesla S as a model - it's not that new).

To continue the video tape analogy, diesel became VHS and all other ICE possibilities were overlooked.

 

[Dryce]

So on a typical day, 84% of vans in this country are travelling no more than 50 miles from where the van is based. Hmmm. Gosh, surely those people need a yet to be invented EV van that has a range of 500 miles? Actually, they don't.

There are different usage patterns.

Travelling 'no more than 50 miles' doesn't mean that the van travels just 50 miles or 50 miles out and back.

The local couriers run out about 25 miles in this area - but the routes are convoluted. I doubt they do less than 100 to 120 miles a day - and many do two runs. At busy periods the runes get extended.

There are two big problem with EV LGVs:

Loading - a car typically travels with a light load - one or two occupants. LGVs may travel almost empty or may travel fully loaded. It's that range of loading that causes the problem. A LGV carryig a driver, an assitanbt., and 1000kg is hauling way more thna a car. This is why the range of an EV van is difficult to judge.

Cost. A van needs to make money and some of the EV vans I've seen prices quoted for are extortionatey priced. They seem to only make sense where the government or local government restrictions on ICE vehicle use make them more attractive for regulatory reasons.

Hybrid vans would - on the surface - seem to make a lot of sense. But for whatever reason they don't seem to have picke dup traction in the market over the last 15 years.

 

[Dryce]

To continue the video tape analogy, diesel became VHS and all other ICE possibilities were overlooked.

The UK is not the only market for ICE vehicles - and the extent of the 'popularity' of diesel private vehicles here was seeded by government policy and taxation.

That popularity isn't reflected in other markets.

The analogy is poor for even the UK market because diesel and petrol are widely available - with video tape formats there was a point where non-VHS faded and disappeared.

 

[Bellow]

There's only really been 4T diesel on offer (in Europe at least) for the past two decades and predictably it became the high NOx emitter that became too expensive with its required fuel injection and exhaust after-treatment to be viable below a certain market price point. Direct injection petrol has recently featured but has it's own troubles and some of the diesel's. Not surprising when it was developed by the same people.

Ultra complex and expensive (also dependent on a battery pack with its own hideous carbon footprint) F1 hybrid power trains lauded for attaining the same thermal efficiency that has been present in 2T marine engines for decades. Wow!

 

[190]

There's only really been 4T diesel on offer (in Europe at least) for the past two decades and predictably it became the high NOx emitter that became too expensive with its required fuel injection and exhaust after-treatment to be viable below a certain market price point. Direct injection petrol has recently featured but has it's own troubles and some of the diesel's. Not surprising when it was developed by the same people.

All ICE's are heading in the same direction of unviability due to emissions driven increased complexity. The next EU7 regulations due out around 2025 are looking like they will be so strict and unrealistic that small engine IC vehicles will not be able to comply. If larger vehicles are able to comply they will be more expensive, hideously complex and no doubt less reliable. The EU7 regs sound like a deliberate attempt to sign the death warrant of ICE well before the 2030 deadline.

You have to wonder if the people coming up with these emissions targets have any connection to the real world and the impact of their decisions on the EU economy. I foresee more of the worlds manufacturers abandoning the ICE EU market altogether.

Analysis: New rules could make ICE engines unviable by 2026 | Autocar

 

[Petrol Pete]

On the subject of EV vans I think little delivery vans might be OK in EV but your average tradesman might have a different view . The guys I know in the trades would not appreciate having to sit for even 30 minutes to charge up 'time is money' but for the guys I know who do local parcel drops for Hermes etc an EV van would be spot on . But looking at the heaps of junk that they drive I don't think they could afford one.

It will be like EV cars , they will be fine for some but a non starter for others.

 

[m80]

On the subject of EV vans

Things will change but that needs to be dramatic or the smaller traders will be unable to compete with the larger organisations.
Where the larger organisations can finance a new and much more expensive fleet they must pass the additional costs on to the customer, with less competition of the smaller traders that will be easier.

I have felt the Gov't wants rid of the little guy for some time anyway. It's easier to manage them when they work for the larger.

 

[Petrol Pete]

m80 , I agree up to a point but none of the tradesmen I know have to compete with the larger organisations , it's the other way around. the 'big boy's' can not attract the higher end of the tradesmen because they don't pay enough and the men who's skills and knowledge surpass that of the site agent who is trying to tell then the right way to do something that they have been doing since the agent was in short trousers never ends well.

It might just be the lot I hang out with but most of them have vans without sign writing few have business cards none have websites and some of them forget to charge their phones up .

But one thing they all have in common is more work than they can handle , not enough days in the week . These are the guy's I am talking about not wanting to sit waiting for a van to charge (and by the time that happens they will all either have died of old age or retired )

No doubt E vans will be a thing but getting the E cars sorted will have to come first.

 

[Wolfie1]

My best mate is a self employed joiner/builder he runs a discovery commercial as he pretty much always has a trailer on the back, mini digger, 2 ton of sand or whatever, big flat trailers full of materials taking to/from jobs or tool trailers, i just dont know how his business will survive with an electric vehicle as its over the limit for electric vehicles to tow and sometimes (quite ofter actually) he is travelling 30 miles or more on country roads to his job towing something!

For myself sure most of the journeys i do an electric vehicle would work once i get over how shit an electric vehicle that i could afford would be, but all the times a year i tow my caravan again an ev wouldnt work for me as they just arent up to towing the weight at 1600kg.

These are just 2 scenarios that probably a lot of folks are going to be stuck in, ok maybe caravan holidays will become a long distant fond memories but i will still earn a wage but when its folks livelihoods how can they possibly survive!

 

[ChipChop]

Vans are available for hire by the day.

Every hire car or van i have had has been supplied with a full tank of diesel on pick up and has to be returned with a full tank of diesel. Will the same apply for a days hire of an electric vehicle?

24 hours in a days hire. Up to 8 hours of which a Mercedes e-Sprinter will be sat plugged in charging and unable to be used for its intended purpose.

 

[Deleted member 159894]

Every hire car or van i have had has been supplied with a full tank of diesel on pick up and has to be returned with a full tank of diesel. Will the same apply for a days hire of an electric vehicle?

24 hours in a days hire. Up to 8 hours of which a Mercedes e-Sprinter will be sat plugged in charging and unable to be used for its intended purpose.

I was referring to hiring an ICE van for exceptional days when an EV van won’t work so your question is irrelevant In this context.