The UK Politics & Brexit Thread - Please no Covid talk!

DRF20000

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“Yet it is a great mistake to suppose that the only writers who matter are those whom the educated in their saner moments can take seriously. There exists a subterranean world where pathological fantasies disguised as ideas are churned out by crooks and half-educated fanatics for the benefit of the ignorant and superstitious. There are times when this underworld emerges from the depths and suddenly fascinates, captures, and dominates multitudes of usually sane and responsible people, who thereupon take leave of sanity and responsibility. And it occasionally happens that this underworld becomes a political power and changes the course of history.” – Norman Cohn, Warrant for Genocide (1967)
 

st13phil

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And it occasionally happens that this underworld becomes a political power and changes the course of history
Many people - myself included - find it difficult to understand how the Nazis could take control of their country and wreak the horrors on humanity that they did in the last century without the German people (who are no less fair-minded than any other peoples in my experience) rising up and preventing it.

I experienced my "lightbulb moment" when I visited the Documentation Centre in Nuremberg in 2014 and learned how they did it.

I suspect that when the dust settles many people in the UK will look back at the last couple of years and understand how the Nazis did it too.
 

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I’m clearly in the minority here but I couldn’t care less about him walking into the garden for 25 mins, at the end of the day they were all working together anyway in office within close proximity..

Boris was put in a very difficult situation with Brexit to sort out and then Covid…. We have one of the best vaccination programs in Europe.. why aren’t we thinking about the positives?

It’s all being blown massively out of proportion as per usual.

I have a lot of sympathy for those views and agree that in isolation it's not a big deal to have drinks in the garden because in hindsight we can see the rules were too draconian and unnecessary. But that isn't the point, the point is that the majority of the public obeyed the rules even to the extent of having their loved ones die alone. Thousands of people were fined for even more trivial breaches than a No 10 garden party and that's the context with which we should judge No10. The fact that what they did was not particularly risky is besides the point because the public were not permitted the choice.
 

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“Yet it is a great mistake to suppose that the only writers who matter are those whom the educated in their saner moments can take seriously. There exists a subterranean world where pathological fantasies disguised as ideas are churned out by crooks and half-educated fanatics for the benefit of the ignorant and superstitious. There are times when this underworld emerges from the depths and suddenly fascinates, captures, and dominates multitudes of usually sane and responsible people, who thereupon take leave of sanity and responsibility. And it occasionally happens that this underworld becomes a political power and changes the course of history.” – Norman Cohn, Warrant for Genocide (1967)

I think that the recent 'Covidgate' scandal should act as proof that conspiracy theories are essentially all wrong.

The largest number of people who can keep a secret is 3 (you could argue about the exact figure, but it's single-digit). In the case of Covidgate, there were just too many people involved in those 'parties' (which may or may not have taken place....) for this to be kept under wraps. And so, inevitably, the truth came out on less than 2 years.

So the idea that thousands of people conspired to fake the moon landing, or to blow-up the twin towers, the Pentagon, and four planes, and kill many innocent people in the process, or that tens of thousands of scientists conspired together to deceive the world... and not one of them spoke out, its plain simple impossible. Yet people will believe it, just because someone told them so... go figure. Or, just Google the "Birds Aren't Real" experiment that was conducted between 2017 and 2021, and prepare to be amazed.
 

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So the idea that thousands of people conspired to fake the moon landing, or to blow-up the twin towers, the Pentagon, and four planes, and kill many innocent people in the process, or that tens of thousands of scientists conspired together to deceive the world... and not one of them spoke out, its plain simple impossible.
^ Precisely.
 

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I think that the recent 'Covidgate' scandal should act as proof that conspiracy theories are essentially all wrong.

The largest number of people who can keep a secret is 3 (you could argue about the exact figure, but it's single-digit). In the case of Covidgate, there were just too many people involved in those 'parties' (which may or may not have taken place....) for this to be kept under wraps. And so, inevitably, the truth came out on less than 2 years.

So the idea that thousands of people conspired to fake the moon landing, or to blow-up the twin towers, the Pentagon, and four planes, and kill many innocent people in the process, or that tens of thousands of scientists conspired together to deceive the world... and not one of them spoke out, its plain simple impossible. Yet people will believe it, just because someone told them so... go figure. Or, just Google the "Birds Aren't Real" experiment that was conducted between 2017 and 2021, and prepare to be amazed.
Yes, yes, yes! Been saying this for ages. Apart from people's sense of right and wrong can you even begin to imagine the amount of money any whistleblower would be able to get from the media for a supportable conspiracy story? Into the millions?
 

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Yes, yes, yes! Been saying this for ages. Apart from people's sense of right and wrong can you even begin to imagine the amount of money any whistleblower would be able to get from the media for a supportable conspiracy story? Into the millions?

And presumably live to tell the tale.

I could mention Epstein and Dr. David Kelly?

No? Try John F. Kennedy.

To a lesser extent, Snowden and Assange.
 

markjay

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To clarify my previous post.

Any conspiracy theory that would have to involve a very large number of people keeping quiet for a very long time is blatantly false.

Of course there are real conspiracies, people conspire all the time. But they do this in small groups for a long time, or in large groups for a brief time (the later is typically related to military operations e.g. D-Day).

Operation Northwood, for example, is a very real conspiracy (even if only a proposed one). The document was apparently written by 8 people (the Joint Chiefs of Staff), and rejected by Kennedy, that's 9. The document would have been printed and filed, so two or three other people would have potentially been exposed to it. And had it been followed on, it would involve a very small number of CIA operatives. So yes, it was successfully kept secret for 30 years.

Was there a conspiracy to kill Epstein? Or Kelly? Or Diana? I don't know, but it does pass the viability test in respect of the very small number of people who would have to be involved.

But to fake the moon landing? Or to mastermind 9/11? Or to artificially create a pandemic (and a vaccine)? That's thousands and thousands of people who will have to all keep quiet for a very long time. Statistically impossible. Just a reminder: The Matrix is a work of fiction, just like Harry Potter.
 
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markjay

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..To a lesser extent, Snowden and Assange.

And Chelsea Manning. And David Shayler. And Annie Machon. And Katharine Gun. And others.

All whisleblowers. Which goes to prove that if enough people know about a secret, someone will eventually talk.

No large-scale conspiracy can ever survive for long. Not even when it comes to trusted people in the military and secret service. Let alone when it comes to a large number of ordinary people.

The truth will out. Any conspiracy theory that relies on very many people keeping quiet for many years, is blatantly false. It just doesn't happen. This much should be obvious.
 

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To clarify my previous post.

Any conspiracy theory that would have to involve a very large number of people keeping quiet for a very long time is blatantly false.

I think we should distinguish between a 'conspiracy' and 'secrets'.

So the first basically tends to be a mesh of the alleged latter. In some cases secrets beget strange conspiracies. UFO sightings around military areas.

Sometimes secrets are invented.

Sometimes secrets are actually known but the 'srecret' aspect means no offoicial conformation.

But among all that a surprising number of secrets are kept for many years. Despite large numbers of people being involved. The thing is taht we don't know about those because the secret is maintained. You only know about secrets because .... well they are no longer secret.
 

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She's had to add a great deal of extra columns to her Excel sheet over the last week. I wonder if they all fit on the screen?
He didn't actually order the enquiry. He was asking for another soiree and it was mistaken for Sue Gray. Soiree, the hardest word to say....
 

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Boris' fate probably depends on whether the hidden powerbrokers of the Conservative party--- the legendary men in grey suits -- continue to regard him as a continuing electoral asset or impediment. He was regarded as the former before the last general election and the result proved to be the case despite his obvious character flaws. That was okay- he was a winner- they could be overlooked. Recently however he has increasingly gone "off script "-- the increase in national insurance being one example---a big taxation increase!!!!! being an anathema to the men in grey suits.
Teflon coated and presently lying low , he may survive like Donald Trump, who despite an attempt at insurrection of the US government , is now being welcomed back into the fold of the GOP --a party prepared to be led by a sociopath as long as he is a winning sociopath. So don't write Boris off yet.

p.s. And if his "speech of contrition" at the dispatch box at PMQs doesn't win a BAFTA theres no justice in PEPA PIG LAND ;)
 

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