The UK Politics & Brexit Thread

[m80]

Israel’s Rear Admiral Daniel Hagari has already warned “This Attack will have Consequences”.

I suspect the Iranian theocratic regime may have just sealed their fate.

Where were USA and UK this time?

It's thought Iran now have more scary tech, and it seems they have demonstrated ability to get through the dome of steel.
Might not be accurate but another site states the attack was 80% successful.
Oh poo.

 

[markjay]

Slave trader back in the day when the practice was acceptable.
Don't you remember the good folk in Bristol pulling down his statue in protest?

Who was Edward Colston and why is Bristol divided by his legacy?

Should Edward Colston's name be stripped from the streets of Bristol?

www.bbc.co.uk

Colston? He must have been quite the ladies' man if we're all his descendants.......

 

[markjay]

Where were USA and UK this time?

It's thought Iran now have more scary tech, and it seems they have demonstrated ability to get through the dome of steel.
Might not be accurate but another site states the attack was 80% successful.
Oh poo.

Successful? Well, I guess that it depends on what they were trying to achieve. If their goal was to launch 180 missiles, then, yes, they were successful. But if they planned on actually hitting anything on the ground in Israel, then not so much.

 

[ChipChop]

Where were USA and UK this time?

It's thought Iran now have more scary tech, and it seems they have demonstrated ability to get through the dome of steel.
Might not be accurate but another site states the attack was 80% successful.
Oh poo.

Is China not a long standing friend/ strategic partner of Iran? China buys most of the oil Iran exports which would no doubt be a prime strategic target for Israel if they decided to respond tit for tat. Then there is the nukes to consider.

The doomsday clock must be edging ever closer.

 

[m80]

Successful? Well, I guess that it depends on what they were trying to achieve. If their goal was to launch 180 missiles, then, yes, they were successful. But if they planned on actually hitting anything on the ground in Israel, then not so much.

As usual the alternative reports come from biased sources.
So 500 missiles at 80% success,
is apposed with 180 missiles with most intercepted.

So should we believe 340 missiles, with 40% getting through? So less than 140 passing defences.

Let's hope Israel are better at counting.

 

[markjay]

Is China not a long standing friend/ strategic partner of Iran? China buys most of the oil Iran exports which would no doubt be a prime strategic target for Israel if they decided to respond tit for tat. Then there is the nukes to consider.

The doomsday clock must be edging ever closer.

The Israelis will be making a grave mistake if they allow Iran to drag them into a tit-for-tar war of attrition. War is not a game. Israel should go all-in with Iran like they're doing with the Hezbullah in Lebanon.

On a separate note, the Iranian regime seems to be behaving irrationally, firstly because they did again the very same thing that didn't work for them last time, then because they have unwittingly just given Israel a carte blanche to attack Iran in whichever way it wishes to, and lastly because if Israeli bombs are dropped on Tehran then this might be the last straw for the Persian people who may finally topple Iran's oppressive religious regime.

It seems to me that the zealots who rule Iran may have lost all sense of self preservation.

 

[190]

I often hear that 'not all Muslims are suicide bombers, but all suicide bombers are Muslim' - and you could equally say that 'not all Asians are members of grooming gangs, but all members of grooming gangs are Asians'.

But the question to be asked is what precharge of the population are we talking about? What percentage of UK's 3m Muslim community are terrorists, or support terrorism? What percentage of the UK Asian community are members of Asian grooming gangs, or just turn a blind eye?

The Polish and Hungarian are proud that they have taken no Muslim immigrants and have zero terror attacks. They may be right, but by the same logic if we deport from the UK anyone living in council estates we will be dramatically reducing phone snatching and street mugging other petty crime, and in fact if we deport all men we will be significantly reducing rapes and sexual assault. Etc....

All fair comment and I realise it's not the whole of an ethnic group that are responsible for terrorism or support it. Some minority groups though can't or won't get their house in order and restrain or condemn their extreme fractions so they invite being tarred by the same brush. Which I'm sure is something we are about to see evidence of in the coming days as protestors respond to Israel defending itself. I'd like to think we are not going to see yet more two tier policing of the illegal aspects of protests out of fear of being labelled racist but I can't say I have much confidence that the law will actually be upheld.

There is an irony that if you live in the midst of one ethic group, I can tell you from personal experience that there will be no antisocial behaviour, you won't get mugged for your phone or stabbed for no reason and that is if you live amongst the jews. Those are the generally law abiding citizens of our nation who in spite of having no direct connection with Israel, are I suspect about to be attacked yet again by Palestinian sympathisers and many other useful idiots.

 

[Dryce]

The Israelis will be making a grave mistake if they allow Iran to drag them into a tit-for-tar war of attrition. War is not a game. Israel should go all-in with Iran like they're doing with the Hezbullah in Lebanon.

Going 'all in' isn't traditionally a good solution - it's getting 'all out' again that is the really hard part.

How many days did the Russians think would be needed to deal with Ukraine two and a half years ago?

On a separate note, the Iranian regime seems to be behaving irrationally, firstly because they did again the very same thing that didn't work for them last time, then because they have unwittingly just given Israel a carte blanche to attack Iran in whichever way it wishes to, and lastly because if Israeli bombs are dropped on Tehran then this might be the last straw for the Persian people who may finally topple Iran's oppressive religious regime.

It seems to me that the zealots who rule Iran may have lost all sense of self preservation.

Iran has backed itself into a political corner over the last two decades. Full of bluster and hype and puffed up confidence - possibly internal puff and bluster and BS.

Things would be different if Israel was on its border - both sides - particularly Iran could start a ground war to effect an outcome (and with Israel being relatively small the outcome would likely go only one way without US help).

But picking off targets at a distance is different. Israel has a quality advantage in terms of defence and offence that means it can make more choices and importantly .... more subtle choices.

 

[Dryce]

Successful? Well, I guess that it depends on what they were trying to achieve. If their goal was to launch 180 missiles, then, yes, they were successful. But if they planned on actually hitting anything on the ground in Israel, then not so much.

I think 'what they were trying to achieve' is the question.

Those responsible for properly analysing the nature of the attack and the results will have a view of what was going on.

If you are looking to probe anti-missile defences the underlying objective may not be to hit anything on the ground - this time. Or you might launch 180 weapons looking for just a small number to penetrate the defences to hit something specific - to 'send a message'.

As things stand there hasn't been much detailed information about the previous large missile attack. Israel tends to be good at operational security.

 

[Harrythedog]

if Israeli bombs are dropped on Tehran then this might be the last straw for the Persian people who may finally topple Iran's oppressive religious regime.

It seems to me that the zealots who rule Iran may have lost all sense of self preservation.

Let’s hope so. Iran looks a fascinating country and I’ve been lucky enough to have met a few Iranians who are lovely people

 

[m80]

The West are calling for a de escalation in the middle east. I can't see anyone climbing down from their self righteous stands.
So this looks to be more before it becomes less.

The West are firmly on the side of Israel.
So are Saudi, in a less obvious way.

The US and UK have pretty much said that we are in this fight. As in, it is our war too.
In truth that was pretty obvious already, but saying it to ramp up deterrence, also invites hostilities our way.

So the allies, us, are now up against Iran, Palestine, Lebanon, Yemen, and don't forget Russia. Aside from v subtle involvement not China and N Korea.

For the 1st time last night Iran used hyper sonic missiles, I wonder how that came about.
For Ukraine's supporters to need to be protecting Israel it works well to Putin's objectives.

We being in a proxy war in Ukraine, has become Russia aiding Iran, using them as a proxy to divert western efforts.

I can now see Zelensky getting greater abilities with the hardware, I couldn't last week.

The West has done very well to remain a remote participant in these affairs, but for how long will that still be true?

 

[TC350]

Let’s hope so. Iran looks a fascinating country and I’ve been lucky enough to have met a few Iranians who are lovely people

A very close friend of mine had an Iranian mother. She was one of the nicest and most generous people you could wish to meet.

 

[JHS]

I have no problem with the UK supporting Israel in this latest war between Jews and Arabs.
I do have a problem with British forces getting involved.

 

[MSG2004]

What I can never understand is why we, the UK have to get involved in last night's events between Iran and Israel.
Having said that, I know that our weak leader/s are always looking up to the USA like little puppies.

Israel is armed to the teeth and has the best air defences in the world and most of it is funded by the USA
Thankfully, all of the missiles possibly bar one made it into the ground intact.

Israel and USA are more than capable of managing the scenario over there.
Why do our leaders inc this leader, Stramer have to bang on about the UK's "involvement."
I can't see our lot doing almost anything other than firing off a few useless air-to-surface missiles that most probably missed their target.

In my view - behind the scenes Inran is pleased they did not kill anyone but worried that having fired their best missiles they still could not get through the air defences.
I bet you there has been behind-the-scenes talks, and agreements that Israel hits empty bunkers on airfields in Iran and this would make them both level
and de-escalate the situation. Iran will have to accept their jewel in the crown/Hezbollah has been wrong-footed by the pager/radio bombs and
the wiping out of their command structure.

I can see the people of Iran rising with the support of foreign govs and for this reason, Iran does not want to esculate.

The Americans always behave like drug dealers, EG, They say they want to "deescalate" but continue to provide the goods/arms to Israel.
The USA, IMO could easily get both sides to sit down behind the scenes and get both sides to make some compromises.
Having said that, Iran and Israel with the current regimes are in a vicious circle of fear as one has nukes and the other doing their
best to get some and both cry, self defence, which IMO is true to an extent.

 

[ChipChop]

Going all in. Where is Israels plan for peace? Also known as a two state solution.

 

[st13phil]

Israel has a quality advantage in terms of defence and offence that means it can make more choices and importantly .... more subtle choices.

My guess is that it's more likely the Iranian regime suffer a wave of targeted assassinations than wholescale infrastructure destruction. The possible exception to that would be Iranian nuclear facilities, even though they are hardened facilities, often under ground, and therefore difficult to destroy.

The Iranian regime is deeply unpopular within Iran. Given sufficient dismantling of their oppressive control apparatus as a precursor, it's hard to see that the Iranian people won't make significant efforts to destroy it from within.

 

[MSG2004]

May I gently point out to you that every country has "lovely people." Often, I guess in all cases, the decent/lovely/reasonable people outnumber the bigoted but often suppressed by the existing leadership.

The UK is supposed to be one of the most liberal/democratic countries. However, here in the UK, and I guess every other country, you will
always get some people supporting the present regime and in that regime, you always have the half-decent/reasonable and the hawks.

Like any conflict in any part of the world/country, the first victim of any war/trouble is the truth/facts. Even when you get some media portrayed as being
open/honest/factual, the vast majority and 99% IMO will have some bias and others are open in who they support and many people fall for the loaded half-truths/etc, Reuters IMO posts accurate breaking news.

 

[GrahamT]

 

[markjay]

May I gently point out to you that every country has "lovely people." Often, I guess in all cases, the decent/lovely/reasonable people outnumber the bigoted but often suppressed by the existing leadership.

The UK is supposed to be one of the most liberal/democratic countries. However, here in the UK, and I guess every other country, you will
always get some people supporting the present regime and in that regime, you always have the half-decent/reasonable and the hawks.

Like any conflict in any part of the world/country, the first victim of any war/trouble is the truth/facts. Even when you get some media portrayed as being
open/honest/factual, the vast majority and 99% IMO will have some bias and others are open in who they support and many people fall for the loaded half-truths/etc, Reuters IMO posts accurate breaking news.

Agreed. The Islamic terrorists who carried out the attack on the London Underground on 7th July 2005 killing 52 people, didn't bother checking first if their would-be victims attended the '1m march' against the invasion of Iraq ,or were in favour of it.

 

[MSG2004]

Agreed. The Islamic terrorists who carried out the attack on the London Underground on 7th July 2005 killing 52 people, didn't bother checking first if their would-be victims attended the '1m march' against the invasion of Iraq ,or were in favour of it.

Just to add and you will know as well as many other reasonable, sensible people that can see through politicians most of the time
The Israeli PM, the dictator in Iran, those leading Hezbollah and the like - the only ones they care about is themselves but they will never admit that.
The vast majority of Irainas like Israelie people and all other countries, the people want to get on with their lives and try and pay their bills/mortgages

You have the Russians, UDA and these days China that bang on about "peace..,, de-escalations..." but are bending over backwards to supply/sell arms to nations in the pretence they care about them.