The UK Politics & Brexit Thread

[Scott_F]

As for the endemic racism, you have heard about the endemic anti semetism within Labour and the recent criticism Corbyn has come in for for not doing much about it? Havnt you?

Deliberately or not, you are confusing legitimate criticism of the state of Israel with racism and anti-Semitism.

You therefore echo the stance taken by the pro-Israeli lobby as they try to deflect attention from their inexcusable behaviour and I'm afraid it doesn't wash at all.

 

[AMGeed]

So lets start with Theresa May......... and the main thing is she was never voted in.

Now in contrast if we look at Corbyn who was voted in twice at least.

I think you are getting confused.

Although Teresa May never won the General Election as the chosen leader, she did win the vote of the party to replace Cameron as leader of the party and Prime Minister.
In contrast, Corbyn has not been voted into any position of power by the voting public, only by his party who found him slightly less reprehensible than Owen Smith as leader of the Labour Party.

Unlike the good ol US of A, the British public vote to elect a party to govern the country, not the man/woman.

 

[nick mercedes]

Never trust a man who does not bother to polish his shoes!! Take a look at Corbyn's shoes.

Why not look at his policies instead?

 

[brucemillar]

Why not look at his policies instead?

Policy list:

Get rid of anybody who disagrees with me.
Blame everything on everybody else.
It was like that when I got here.
Never worry about being in government.


Nick, he has no credible policies, or if he does they are lost in his lack of electable credibility. He now oversees a party made up of from a large quota of people who will not vote for Labour come a general election. He makes Michael Foot look classy with what has to be a deliberate attempt to look like he is a man of the masses. When Rangers score he is decked out in Blue, when Celtic score, there he is in his green and white. Like Trump he believes (with some justification but no winning votes) that saying what people like to hear will bring him popularity? It may bring him that but will not win Labour a general election.

 

[Deleted member 37751]

Actually, I object to the stereotyping of Brexit voters as (delete as applicable) grey voters / xenophobes / anti-immigrant / I'll-educated blue collar workers / the great unwashed.


But according to some, those who voted out are morons

Couldn't agree more Phil, the arrogance of some towards the democratic result is just sour grapes.

Before the vote, I did my best to talk to as many people as possible (strangers and friends/family) about which way they'll be voting and their reasons why and the common answer was they'd all be voting to leave and, again, there was a common theme; the good jobs and good money had been taken away from your average working man in the town some twenty years ago and been replaced with minimum wage, zero job security, zero hours work which was flourishing because migrant workers were coming here and were more than happy to do this work.

Nobody blamed the migrant workers, how can you blame someone looking for a better life, but the 'establishment' created this vacuum and people saw the EU as the driver of this 'freedom of movement' and ultimately wanted to throw a brick through their window.

I voted Leave because I genuinely cannot see why our government can't handle everything to do with the country, why does there need to be another level of bureaucracy above ours? I would read some of the good things that the EU had implemented, but why did it have to be only them? Why couldn't the government, my government, implement these things?

And one last point; a few days before the vote, I had an interesting discussion with a 50 odd year old middle manager at a break in a day of meetings and I brought up the issue of Brexit. He was vehemently on the side of Remain, telling me how it will affect him and that I should vote Remain and when I pointed out that out of all the reasons he gave me to vote Remain, they were all how they affected him and his life. I told him that I would be voting to Leave for my children and their future and because I genuinely believe that to leave the EU is the best for the country as a whole. He stormed off in a huff, and I had much fun tormenting him all afternoon about a flooring contract!

 

[Stratman]

........................


So lets start with Theresa May .............. and the main thing is she was never voted in.

.....................

Look at the ballot paper next time there's a general election, there's no question "Who do you want as Prime Minister?" You personally may or may not cast your vote for the party whose leader you want to be Prime Minister but millions of others use their vote for other reasons.

The electorate vote for MPs, MPs choose a Government and the Government chooses a Prime Minister.

 

[markjay]

...So lets start with Theresa May... and the main thing is she was never voted in. Now in contrast if we look at Corbyn who was voted in twice...

I think you are confusing the issues here.

Firstly, Theresa May became PM in the same way that Gordon Brown and Winston Churchill did. Not sure if this is what you were referring to though?

Then, parties have different ways of choosing their leader, but again I am not sure why this is relevant? Jeremy Corbyn was elected by a members' vote, a system which some say is not good because it is open to abuse. Theresa May became leader in the aftermath of some serious back-stabbing at her party, which obviously isn't a great way of doing business either.

Different parties have different institutions, but in any event all this matters little, becuase the way it works is that the parties decide who their leader is by whatever method they choose, and then put the matter to the British public.

At this point neither May nor Corbyn have been put to the test by the electorate as yet.

So where exactly is the issue here?

 

[markjay]

Deliberately or not, you are confusing legitimate criticism of the state of Israel with racism and anti-Semitism....

I think you know the answer to this... criticism of Israel on any issue is totally legitimate when it is applied equally to all countries and states.

The link between criticism of Israel and antisemitism becomes apparent when those criticising Israel refuse to criticise others who commit similar acts.

This is an ongoing issue, not limited to any particular act or statement.

Be fair and equal and there will no claims of antisemitism.

 

[markjay]

Why not look at his policies instead?

..The Labour's electability based on Corbyn's policies - from what I read online (e.g. : http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/0/what-are-jeremy-corbyns-policies-in-the-labour-leadership-contes/amp/ ), his manifesto sounds like a Socialist text book and his policies are uncompromising. Nothing wrong with that, apart from the fact that the majority of British people do not seem to be willing to vote for it. Some give-and-take and movement to the centre-left would no doubt help Labour's popularity among voters - this is how Blair won elections in the past....

The only issue with Corbyn's policies is that they are mostly utopian.

Public everything funded by taxing the rich... and borrowing the shortfall.

As they say... if it's too good to be true... it probably isn't.

 

[ringway]

He clearly dived.
There's no way that was a penalty.
Rolling around on the ground like he'd been shot, but able to get up and put the ball in the net.

Is it any wonder that I won't get involved on this thread?

 

[WDB124066]

Yes! I wanted to ask some really good questions like why are we allowing the third world to invade the first world and if anybody raises this you get labeled a racist on here but I won't.

 

[fabes]

And there's a root cause (one of many) with the world problems

The engine house of change and progress and development in a world is the 20 to 30 year olds (energy, ideas and sex appeal....don't knock it)

Us oldies don't have it anymore (delete as appropriate)

If they up and leave for the 'easier' option of going to a first world country, how is theirs going to improve?

That's where foreign aid should be directed

But, back to politics..... He was fouled :fail

 

[WDB124066]

"If they up and leave for the 'easier' option of going to a first world country, how is theirs going to improve?"

YES, YES & YES!!

Honestly I do not mean anybody any harm, in fact quite the reverse but how the heck do you improve if your potential leaders leave?

And on the other side of the coin, has anybody given any thought to the effect of being overwhelmed by people from a foreign country with foreign attitudes etc etc. I remember mentioning this to Koreans when I was there, they said NZL is underpopulated and needs more people, I said we were the richest country on earth per head in the late 50's and 60's, so what else do we need? The look was blank so I asked him how he would feel if 30% of Korea's population was Chinese. BOOM instant recognition of the problem right across his face.

Multiculturalism is the most racist policy on earth, for if it is taken to its natural conclusion there will only be one race, not the many we enjoy at the moment.

 

[Scott_F]

I think you know the answer to this... criticism of Israel on any issue is totally legitimate when it is applied equally to all countries and states.

The link between criticism of Israel and antisemitism becomes apparent when those criticising Israel refuse to criticise others who commit similar acts.

This is an ongoing issue, not limited to any particular act or statement.

Be fair and equal and there will no claims of antisemitism.

The Israeli occupation of Palestinian lands, their conduct there and their relentless program of settlement building is in breach of every interpretation of international law except their own.

No one else could get away with it and they are only able to do so due to the military, economic and political support of the US.

So criticism of their actions can't ever be dismissed and racist or anti-Semitic.

 

[markjay]

The Israeli occupation of Palestinian lands, their conduct there and their relentless program of settlement building is in breach of every interpretation of international law except their own.

No one else could get away with it and they are only able to do so due to the military, economic and political support of the US.

So criticism of their actions can't ever be dismissed and racist or anti-Semitic.

This thread is about UK politics and I don't want to go OT and discuss the Middle East issues here (we can do this separately).

My post was simply to explain why many British Jews see criticism of Israel as Antisemitic - i.e. when it is discriminantly leveled only against Israel but not others. There are quite a few examples but again this is not the issue here.

You can disagree with this view, or you can ignore it altogether - as said this is a separate discussion - but the fact that is relevant to this thread is that this is why Labour under Corbyn has been accused by some of its Jewish members as being Antisemitic.

Incidentally, both main parties elected Jewish leaders in recent years - Micheal Howard and Ed Milliband - so the accusation of Antisemitism is not aimed at the entire UK political system or even at a specific party - just at Corbyn and Momentum.

 

[AnimMerc]

Look at the ballot paper next time there's a general election, there's no question "Who do you want as Prime Minister?" You personally may or may not cast your vote for the party whose leader you want to be Prime Minister but millions of others use their vote for other reasons.

The electorate vote for MPs, MPs choose a Government and the Government chooses a Prime Minister.

I was making a comparison of voted in V's not voted in, in any case do you think the Conservative's would have won the last election if she was the PM then?

 

[Alfie]

Im going to bow out of this debate now. Ive made my point and I respect that some disagree with it even if they cannot see the blindingly obvious thats in front of them. Right now we have a one party state and whatever side of the political spectrum you are on, thats not a good thing.

We will see what happens to comrade Corbyn when there is a general election.

 

[AnimMerc]

I think you are confusing the issues here.

Firstly, Theresa May became PM in the same way that Gordon Brown and Winston Churchill did. Not sure if this is what you were referring to though?
.................................
At this point neither May nor Corbyn have been put to the test by the electorate as yet.

So where exactly is the issue here?

I was making a comparison of voted in V's not voted in, in any case do you think the Conservative's would have won the last election if she was the PM then?
People voted Corbyn because they believe he can be PM.

 

[Druk]

People voted Corbyn because they believe he can be PM.

Of la-la land.

 

[Stratman]

I don't move in political circles, but even so I know a couple of Tory supporters who paid their £3 to vote for Corbyn. As they put it, "He's our best asset"

Regarding May not being 'elected', by which I'm assuming the OP meant winning a general election as incumbent leader, in my lifetime the following six prime ministers were not their party leader at the relevant general election

Harold McMillan
Alec Douglas Home
James Callaghan
John Major
Gordon Brown
Theresa May

It's hardly an unusual occurrence.