The UK Politics & Brexit Thread

[Bellow]

I pretty sure that ‘call me Dave’ was also confident of a Remain result. I’m also convinced that many ‘leave’ voters only did so in order to wave a couple of fingers at Cameron, without considering that the end result would turn out the way it did.

And when the Brexit doesn't work for them - what do you think they'll do next?

 

[markjay]

That is the essence of fighting elections.

True, this is how all close-run political votes are decided - and this is why the campaigns only really target the undecided minority - because it is they, in fact, who decide the result.

And, my point was that saying that the pre-referndum propaganda had no effect on the result because 'the majority of Leave voters have already made-up their minds anyway', is factually incorrect. In fact, the things said in the run-up to the referendum pretty much sealed the result.

 

[flowrider]

..........In the case of the Brexit referendum, as I previously pointed-out, had 700,000 people not voted the way they did, we would have stayed in the EU. In other words, our faith as a nation is down to how 700,000 people felt on the day.........

Surely the biggest impact may have been the approx. 30% of voters that didn't register a vote either way.

 

[markjay]

Surely the biggest impact may have been the approx. 30% of voters that didn't register a vote either way.

True. Though those who didn’t vote were not affected by the propaganda (or, if they were, it didn't matter anyway).

 

[Deleted member 65149]

True. Though those who didn’t vote were not affected by the propaganda (or, if they were, it didn't matter anyway).

As one of those who didn’t vote, for me it was the outrageous propaganda from both sides that persuaded me that neither option merited my support. I’ve saved my support for doing whatever I can to help make the decision succeed.

 

[DSM10000]

True, this is how all close-run political votes are decided - and this is why the campaigns only really target the undecided minority - because it is they, in fact, who decide the result.

And, my point was that saying that the pre-referndum propaganda had no effect on the result because 'the majority of Leave voters have already made-up their minds anyway', is factually incorrect. In fact, the things said in the run-up to the referendum pretty much sealed the result.

Your example is of course correct for "first past the post" electoral systems so possibly a fairer system (although generally with chaotic outcomes) would be proportional representation.

Debate!

 

[flowrider]

Your example is of course correct for "first past the post" electoral systems so possibly a fairer system (although generally with chaotic outcomes) would be proportional representation.

Debate!

Proportional representation just results in hung parliaments.

 

[DSM10000]

Proportional representation just results in hung parliaments.

Precisely hence my comment re chaotic outcomes.

 

[GeeJayW]

And when the Brexit doesn't work for them - what do you think they'll do next?

My point is; I think many that voted leave in the Brexit referendum, were simply anti government rather than pro Brexit. My guess is that they may well be dismayed at the outcome. As to what they do next, they’ll have to suck it up like the rest of us.

 

[mattc]

Proportional representation just results in hung parliaments.

Precisely hence my comment re chaotic outcomes.

Depends whether you think the UK would follow an Italian PR model or a German one. I actually think PR would be beneficial to the UK as, after an initial period where the 2 main parties would need to adjust their thinking to the new system, we would find more cooperation than conflict. Ultimately it would mean the centre ground would typically have the say so... as a bell distribution would suggest. It would stop the worst power excesses of privileged Tory boys and their equivalents on the hard Left. (Well, I can hope I guess!)

 

[markjay]

Part of the issue is people using 'Non Sequitur' arguments, deliberately misrepresenting how democracy works.

Thing like "Not in my name", or "I never voted for...", or even "we never voted for...", misleadingly incorporate the erroneous assumption that in a democracy, their opinions and wishes must be obeyed and followed.

But this is not so. In fact, there is a very long list of things that happened in our Democratic country, that I did note vote for - either because I voted against, or because they were never put to a public vote.

This is democracy in action... where people agree to accept choices they didn't make but that were fairly arrived at, based on the rules we agreed on.

If everyone insisted that things they didn't vote shouldn't happen... we will be living in Anarchy, not in a Democracy.

 

[C240Sport97]

the things said in the run-up to the referendum pretty much sealed the result.

that's one heck of a broad sweeping statement backed up with nothing at all ..

 

[markjay]

that's one heck of a broad sweeping statement backed up with nothing at all ..

I think you will find if follows from my previous posts.

And, as said, it's not just Brexit - it's true for any close-run race.

In essence - forget about the majority of voters, instead find the undecided minority, and hit them with propaganda.

That's exactly what Cambridge Analytica were doing, BTW (albeit, in their case, illegally - allegedly).

This documentary explains exactly how it works:

Watch The Great Hack | Netflix Official Site

Explore how a data company named Cambridge Analytica came to symbolize the dark side of social media in the wake of the 2016 U.S. presidential election.

www.netflix.com

 

[C240Sport97]

I think you will find if follows from my previous posts.

And, as said, it's not just Brexit - it's true for any close-run race.

In essence - forget about the majority of voters, instead find the undecided minority, and hit them with propaganda.

That's exactly what Cambridge Analytica were doing, BTW (albeit, in their case, illegally - allegedly).

This documentary explains exactly how it works:

Watch The Great Hack | Netflix Official Site

Explore how a data company named Cambridge Analytica came to symbolize the dark side of social media in the wake of the 2016 U.S. presidential election.

www.netflix.com

wow, the smoking gun .. game, set and match

 

[ChipChop]

Talking of mind bending pro- Eu propaganda i was amused to learn that the pro- EU fanatics rag The New European has been taken over by a consortium including the former BBC director general Mark Thompson. Has he not twigged we have now left the EU, never to return.

The New European bought by consortium from Archant

The young title is now owned by a consortium led by the former Daily Mirror executive Matt Kelly.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[markjay]

wow, the smoking gun .. game, set and match

I recommend that you watch the Netflix documentary about Cambridge Analytica... and also Mark Zuckerberg's grilling in Congress over Facebook's involvement. They are referring to the 2016 US elections, but explain well how the system works. Locate the undecided, and target them with propaganda tailored to their fears. It's all there...

 

[C240Sport97]

Is the unratified TCA the EU’s new weapon in the Brexit war against Britain? - Briefings For Britain

The “experimental peace” represented by the signed – but unratified – Trade and Cooperation Agreement with the EU seems to be already coming under severe strain. There are sadly predictable signs that the EU is more interested in continuing to punish Britain for Brexit by playing politics with...

briefingsforbritain.co.uk

 

[markjay]

Well.... the urgent delivery that we shipped last Monday to Germany with UPS on "48 Hours delivery"... is still showing as being in 'Stansted'. No idea why UPS don't just put it on a plain... neither do their Customer Services representatives - all they can say is that they have "8 working days" to respond to queries regarding the whereabouts of shipments. No idea if it's down to Brexit, or just UPS....?

 

[st13phil]

Well.... the urgent delivery that we shipped last Monday to Germany with UPS on "48 Hours delivery"... is still showing as being in 'Stansted'. No idea why UPS don't just

Anecdotally, UPS seem to be having more difficulties than other carriers. I have a parcel being shipped to me from Germany that spent 11 days in their facility at Eindhoven with a status of "The package is delayed due to a Brexit related disruption. We are adjusting delivery plans as quickly as possible."

Did you provide the tariff code(s) and incoterms for the goods on your commercial invoice? One or both of those missing is the most common cause of delays.

 

[PhantomF4]

Well.... the urgent delivery that we shipped last Monday to Germany with UPS on "48 Hours delivery"... is still showing as being in 'Stansted'. No idea why UPS don't just put it on a plain... neither do their Customer Services representatives - all they can say is that they have "8 working days" to respond to queries regarding the whereabouts of shipments. No idea if it's down to Brexit, or just UPS....?

Many years ago I worked for Chivas Bros in Paisley and was asked to compile a performance report on UPS as delays in the delivery of customs documents were causing massive financial issues for their importers.

For info, each consignment of spirits was accompanied by a set of customs documents, a second set was dispatched via UPS to the recipient and the originals were kept in Paisley. When the shipment arrived, the receiver needed to produce his set of documents in order to have the consignment released by customs.

So many sets of docs were being misdelivered, arriving late or simply disappearing that something had to be done. The problem was worst in South America, not unknown in Russia but pretty rare in Europe. UPS was duly replaced by FedEx and the problems pretty much disappeared.

I’m not saying Brexit isn’t an issue, but based on my experience I wouldn’t rule UPS out of being part of the problem.