The UK Politics & Brexit Thread

[markjay]

Needless to say this sort of thing can give the wrong impression.
Government ministers 'congratulated themselves' for cutting fire regulations | Metro News

Sadly this will be more than enough for the mob to convict the Tories in a Kangaroo Court.

"Conservative ministers were proud of slashing fire regulations, just months ahead of the Grenfell Tower block blaze."

That logical and factual fact that whatever the ministers may have done 'just months ahead of the Grenfell Tower block blaze' had no effect whatsoever on this tragic event will be one logical iteration to far for Joe Public.

Me? An Elitist? Not at all... I just hope we had more Mr. Spocks on this planet.

 

[grober]

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...fell-tower-price-britain-inequality-high-rise
QUOTE:-
I don’t doubt the current government’s involvement in this disaster, if only by implication through its reluctance to update and enforce building regulations, and its insistence on starving local authorities to the bone. The relentless enforcement of austerity as an ideology has meant that all councils now feel it is their job to spend as little as possible. This includes the borough of Kensington and Chelsea, which, according to Kensington’s new Labour MP, and housing campaigner, Emma Dent Coad, has a £300m contingency fund


Grenfell has to be the point where we recognise collectively the criminally destructive effects of Britain’s class inequality. When inequality is permitted to flourish, its effects bear down all the more on those at or near the bottom. The experience of material poverty is compounded by the assumption that you caused your own poverty through being stupid. The privileged can buy their safety, their security, their legal representation, and kid themselves that it’s because they’re clever and know the answers, so they don’t have to listen. Their wilful deafness has come to haunt them.

 

[leef44]

He might... Blair figured-out the key to getting votes, so far Corbyn seems to be on the right track following in Blair's footsteps, only question is whether he can keep it up for another 5 years.

These are dangerous times. Soon we will be back in that cycle again, the rate things are going...oh dear

 

[markjay]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jun/16/grenfell-tower-price-britain-inequality-high-rise
QUOTE:-
I don’t doubt the current government’s involvement in this disaster, if only by implication through its reluctance to update and enforce building regulations, and its insistence on starving local authorities to the bone. The relentless enforcement of austerity as an ideology has meant that all councils now feel it is their job to spend as little as possible. This includes the borough of Kensington and Chelsea, which, according to Kensington’s new Labour MP, and housing campaigner, Emma Dent Coad, has a £300m contingency fund


Grenfell has to be the point where we recognise collectively the criminally destructive effects of Britain’s class inequality. When inequality is permitted to flourish, its effects bear down all the more on those at or near the bottom. The experience of material poverty is compounded by the assumption that you caused your own poverty through being stupid. The privileged can buy their safety, their security, their legal representation, and kid themselves that it’s because they’re clever and know the answers, so they don’t have to listen. Their wilful deafness has come to haunt them.

The above assumes that everything was done correctly and to current regulations etc, albeit at the lowest cost.

If no one has done anything wrong and yet we had this tragic event, then yes the system has failed.

BUT - if it is proven that individuals or organisations were criminally negligent or even worse corrupt - then the austerity argument is nothing but a red herring.

Keeping in mind that Corbyn immediately blamed 'cut to the fire service' - only for firefighters to say that with 200 firefighters attending the scene but very limited access for fire engines and only a handful going into the building through the single staircase at any one time - he is deliberatly ignoring the fact no amount of additional fire appliances or men would have made the slightest difference.

(Incidentally, the tallest ladders in the world only go up to the 8th or 9th floor, no one has a rescue solution for a 24 story building for love or money)

The only accusation that can possibly stick (if looking at this dispassionately) is that the austerity ethos was misunderstood by local councils and wrongly encouraged them to cut cost on fire and safety.

But even if this is proven to be the case - and it hasn't as yet - it is still a rather vauge and indirect link between May and this tragic event.

The main indisputable argument against May is that she appears to be cold and officious at a time when people need a warm word and a hug rather than logical reassurances.

I actually agree with that - and as I said I give full credit to Corbyn and the Queen and anyone who actually went down there and displayed genuine sadness and sympathy.

 

[markjay]

Nick, if you were offered £1million to change your mind from it's present processes would you accept or would you continue down the road to anarchy?

How about £10million?

Everyone's a prostitute; all that's up for discussion is the price.

.

You are starting way too high.

The Students' vote was bought for much less...

 

[Dryce]

You jest, you guys can pretend it's just the usual rent-a-mob suspects looking for an excuse for a demo, but this is the start of something massive.

It's the defining moment of when the nation demands an end to Theresa May's lame duck premiership, and end to the everyday graft and corruption than the wealthy have used to huge self benefit and and end to austerity.

Nick - you need some perspective.

Clearly there is something about the current political situation that excites you. However I would comment that I lived through periods where there were much much bigger movements.

I don't perceive there is actually as much genuine 'inequality' or 'poverty' as there was previously. It's just that people talk about it, moan about it, and politicise it. The mainstream media has a huge political chip on its shoulder at the moment as well as being under competitive pressure because of the new medai sources.

What happened in London was terrible - but the political focus is even more intense because it is London as opposed to Bradford or Aberdeen. The remnant of the tower stands in full view of the national media and politicians as a monument and will for a while.

As for Ms May - the cruelty of politics means that given her current situation there is nothing she can do that will not probably end up in her looking diminished. If it's a tragedy then she's not responsive or empathic enough and dep down people just want to balme her - and it it is something positive then the praise will be directed elsewhere. The vultures are circling around her. Mr Corbyn isn't a statesman and doesn't seem to have any boundaries when it comes to exploiting a situation to the advantage of his agenda.

The real definining moment .... of the moment .... as far as the UK is concerned right now are the EU talks starting. The country seems ill prepared psychologically and politically for that right now.

 

[Alfie]

I totally agree. Like selling stuff on-line then not delivering it...or not sending refunds for damaged or wrong stuff and ignoring endless pleas from customers.........

Direct hit

 

[brucemillar]

What has not been mentioned here is this:

While some demonstrated yesterday against May and the Conservative Government, some who were interviewed sighted their anger against May stating that she had not visited the "victims". At this exact time May was in hospital visiting the victims - without fuss or mass media coverage - she simply went and visited those directly affected and injured. Afterwards looking visibly upset, she stated what was needed in the immediate/short term to help those affected. Short and concise. No blaming others, not hamming up her anger, just "this is what we need to do and this is what we will do.

This was done as more protestors arrived by bus with their ready made anti Tory placards. Quiet how they see themselves as helping or assisting anybody by marching up and the road demanding that May go, I have no idea?

I am reminded of a dear friend (a BA training Captain) who recalled the story of how, when flying trans-atlantic, a distressed stewardess came on the radio stating "Captain, we have a fire in the galley!!!! What would you like me to do?" His response: "Put it out dear"

No bells no whistles, no promises of milk and honey. Just a plain,simple honest answer "put it out"

 

[Alfie]

Grenfell tower;

Council built under Labour

Kensignton MP Labour

Maintained by a TMO that same Labour MP was on the board of.

But somehow its the Tory governments fault.

Bussing in loads of feckless workshy anarchists does nothing to help the victims or the party they (the workshy) claim to support.

 

[Dryce]

The main indisputable argument against May is that she appears to be cold and officious at a time when people need a warm word and a hug rather than logical reassurances.

Would you expect a hug from Mr Corbyn?

I have a feeling that if he ever had a watch for something to happen on where he had to behave responsibly we'd not be impressed by him.

I also think male politicians have an advantage in these sorts of situations - they are expected to show less emotion by the public.

Personally I don't care about the PM turning up and looking sympathetic. I'd quite happy with some cold hearted professional who could be trusted to get on with understanding and fixing problems rather than playing to the media.

There was an interview shown on HIGNFY last night where she did the
Ed Milliband thing of answering every question with a similar response that contained the same phrases.

Is this what we have come to? A media and politicians that are so ritualised in their interaction in order that each is coercing the other to get what they want in front of public.

 

[LTD]

If I got a hug from Jeremy Corbin, the first thing I would do is check for my wallet.

 

[markjay]

...Personally I don't care about the PM turning up and looking sympathetic. I'd quite happy with some cold hearted professional who could be trusted to get on with understanding and fixing problems rather than playing to the media....

So would I.

But we appear to be in the minority and - and perhaps like May - we're not what Joe Public wants at their time of need.

(Mrs MJ actually bought me a Mr Spock T-shirt for my birthday........)

 

[Alfie]

..........................

Methinks you have been reading too many fiction stories.
But carry on, it makes my day having a good laugh at these absurd posts of yours.

Oh, and Druk doesn't have to name names. Its well documented and appears to have hit a nerve.

I dont believe Druk was being personal at all I think he was referring to a particular company that has come in for a lot of criticism on this forum, no-one personally at all.

 

[markjay]

If I got a hug from Jeremy Corbin, the first thing I would do is check for my wallet.

No need, he's not a common pickpocket, instead he has far more sophisticated ways of removing your wallet..... along with all your other possessions.

 

[Alfie]

If I got a hug from Jeremy Corbin, the first thing I would do is check for my wallet.

I would want a shower immediately after. Have you seen how grubby Catweazle or Steptoe was?

 

[Turbo1]

No need, he's not a common pickpocket, instead he has far more sophisticated ways of removing your wallet..... along with all your other possessions.

Yes like taxing your garden and taking 50% of your earnings.

 

[wemorgan]

BBC

Volunteer Swarzy Macaly, who is helping to co-ordinate the emergency effort following the fire at Grenfell Tower, says the images of angry crowds are not a "true reflection" of how people are responding.

She told the BBC: "All over the news are riots and (people) kicking down doors. That is not a true reflection.

"If you are on the ground, you know what the community spirit is. Yes people are angry, but people are loving.

"I haven't seen any council members, we're doing this very organically. But we're doing our best to lead a community where we're still mourning."



Will

 

[Swotty]

It seems that, in 2005, Corbyn voted in the HoC for tower blocks built before 2007 to have no need for .......

wait for it .....


it's worth it ....




fire sprinklers.



How come 40% of the UK public who voted for him as the saviour cannot see through him and his equally noxious pals?

Stuart

 

[grober]

While a possibility certainly exists this dreadfull event came about by criminal negligence or corruption at present I'll adhere to what I feel is a more likely reason. This could be construed as a more pessimistic or optimistic view of human behaviour depending on how you look at it. Optimistic because I believe no one involved intended these people to die in such a horrible manner but pessimistic because ultimately the verdict may well turn out to be----- Death by politically mediated Indifference

 

[markjay]

It seems that, in 2005, Corbyn voted in the HoC for tower blocks built before 2007 to have no need for .......

wait for it .....


it's worth it ....




fire sprinklers.



How come 40% of the UK public who voted for him as the saviour cannot see through him and his equally noxious pals?

Stuart

I posted on the other thread that a former resident who grew up in Grenfell Tower in the seventies said on the radio that he members very well that there were sprinklers fitted at the time, and that one occasion he even saw them activated when a small fire broke out.

It this is true, it would interesting to know who decided to remove them.... as well as when, and why?