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If anyone doubts the type of organisation the EU is becoming please read this and make of it what you will

What democratic mandate has Guy Verhofstadt got?

Guy is a Member of the European Parliament ("MEP") and is the EP's spokesperson on Brexit.

He therefore speaks for around 500 million European people.

Let's see with what level of democratic legitimacy he speaks for 500 million people...

What you are about to see is typical EU democracy.

A hint of a vote here, a smattering of consent there, overall, just enough to make the system appear democratic to a casual observer.

But it's just a veneer of democracy hiding a deeply authoritarian reality.
Guy was not elected as an MEP.

The Belgians do not elect individuals in the EP elections; they vote for political parties.

Guy's political party is the Open Flemish Liberals & Democrats ("the OFLD").

The OFLD got 858,872 votes in the 2014 election.
Under the Belgian electoral college system that meant the OFLD got 3 MEPs (out of 21).

The OFLD got 12.89% of the popular vote in the 2014 EP election.

To put that into context, UKIP got 12.6% of the popular vote in the 2015 UK general election.

The winners of the 2014 EP election in Belgium were the New Flemish Alliance, a centre-right nationalist and separatist party who increased their share of the vote by three hundred percent.

The reality...

GUY IS AN MEP BECAUSE HIS PARTY GOT HAMMERED IN AN ELECTION.

So how did this MEP from this minority party in one of the European small states come to speak for the EP - and 500 million people - on Brexit?

The process I am about to outline should make anyone who cares about democracy feel very unsettled.
Did MEPs elect a Brexit spokesperson in an open vote, choosing from a range of possible candidates with different views from across the political spectrum?

No.

Of course they didn't.

Guy was APPOINTED by the CONFERENCE OF THE PRESIDENTS OF THE EP ("the Conference").

The Conference meets twice a month, in private, and is closed to all but 8 - yes 8 - MEPs.

The 8 MEPs are the chairs of the 8 broad political groups into which the EP has organised itself.

"What groups?" you ask, "I don't vote for a group in the EP elections".

Oh yes you do.
The political parties from all the member states have organised themselves into 8 broad political groups. It is those 8 groups which operate in the EP, not the political parties themselves.

Each of the 8 groups has a "President".

Each of the 8 Presidents attends the Conference.
One of the 8 groups is the Alliance of Liberals & Democrats for Europe ("ALDE").

The Belgian party OFLD is in ALDE.

Guy is the (unelected, obviously) president of ALDE.

So Guy attends the Conference.

Do you see how the VOTERS are getting more and more distant?

It gets worse.
So did the Conference meet, consider a range of candidates, hold an open vote and declare the winner?

No.

Of course not.

Well did they even meet and have a debate about candidates then?

Nope.

The Conference didn't even meet and there was no vote.
Guy met up with Martin Schulz (remember him?) informally.

MS was the President of EP group Progressive Alliance of Socialists and Democrats ("PASD").

Two other group Presidents joined them.

In a backroom, they alone appointed Guy to speak for 500m people.

WITH NO VOTE AT ALL.
The Presidents of the other political groups were informed of the appointment and the announcement was made to the world that Guy was the EP spokesperson on Brexit.

An ARCH-FEDERALIST, an extremist even by EU standards, a fanatic basically had become the EP Brexit spokesperson.
Look at Guy's timeline today.

He has tweeted that the EP will refuse to approve any form of Withdrawal Agreement without the Backstop in it.

How the hell does he know?

It's supposed to be a vote. But democracy never works properly in the EU.
Even the Parliament - the only quasi-democratic institute in the whole rotten Union - is controlled, co-ordinated and centrally managed by the political groups.

Guy knows which way the EP will vote because he and few of his buddies control the EP.
This man hold the interests and the well-being of 500 million in his hands. He is a key player in a set of extremely important international negotiations.

All because his fringe party, in a small state, lost an election.

And because three other blokes decided he should be.
Try and think about this from the point of view of a French agricultural worker or a German manufacturing worker.

In what credible democratic sense does Guy speak for them?

How the hell does he know whether they want a backstop or not?

Try to follow the democratic chain?
If you cannot follow the democratic links in the chain from the people to the representative, then IT IS NOT DEMOCRACY.

If you cannot comprehend, or even ascertain, the process by which the representative obtains his power, then IT IS NOT DEMOCRACY.
If you cannot conceive of a possible democratic method by which the representative can be removed, censured or otherwise controlled by the electorate, IT IS NOT DEMOCRACY.

What is a Spanish worker supposed to do to replace Guy? Where should she start? Who does she protest to?
I've done this kind of research exercise many times with regard to the EU's democratic credentials.

I promise you the result is the same every single time.

Try it. Pick an EU bigwig and unravel where his/her power comes from.

And then try telling me the EU is democratic.
 
Youre not leaving so you will

I am leaving. Expats in the EU will be affected in many ways. Hostility cannot be ruled out, in addition to financial and health provision concerns. The exchange rate has a significant impact of life out here.

Before you ask, I pay PAYE in the UK - I have no choice but to do so.
 
If anyone doubts the type of organisation the EU is becoming please read this and make of it what you will

What democratic mandate has Guy Verhofstadt got?

Guy is a Member of the European Parliament ("MEP") and is the EP's spokesperson on Brexit.

He therefore speaks for around 500 million European people.

Let's see with what level of democratic legitimacy he speaks for 500 million people...

What you are about to see is typical EU democracy.

A hint of a vote here, a smattering of consent there, overall, just enough to make the system appear democratic to a casual observer.

But it's just a veneer of democracy hiding a deeply authoritarian reality.
Guy was not elected as an MEP.

The Belgians do not elect individuals in the EP elections; they vote for political parties.

Guy's political party is the Open Flemish Liberals & Democrats ("the OFLD").

The OFLD got 858,872 votes in the 2014 election.
Under the Belgian electoral college system that meant the OFLD got 3 MEPs (out of 21).

The OFLD got 12.89% of the popular vote in the 2014 EP election.

To put that into context, UKIP got 12.6% of the popular vote in the 2015 UK general election.

The winners of the 2014 EP election in Belgium were the New Flemish Alliance, a centre-right nationalist and separatist party who increased their share of the vote by three hundred percent.

The reality...

GUY IS AN MEP BECAUSE HIS PARTY GOT HAMMERED IN AN ELECTION.

So how did this MEP from this minority party in one of the European small states come to speak for the EP - and 500 million people - on Brexit?

The process I am about to outline should make anyone who cares about democracy feel very unsettled.
Did MEPs elect a Brexit spokesperson in an open vote, choosing from a range of possible candidates with different views from across the political spectrum?

No.

Of course they didn't.

Guy was APPOINTED by the CONFERENCE OF THE PRESIDENTS OF THE EP ("the Conference").

The Conference meets twice a month, in private, and is closed to all but 8 - yes 8 - MEPs.

The 8 MEPs are the chairs of the 8 broad political groups into which the EP has organised itself.

"What groups?" you ask, "I don't vote for a group in the EP elections".

Oh yes you do.
The political parties from all the member states have organised themselves into 8 broad political groups. It is those 8 groups which operate in the EP, not the political parties themselves.

Each of the 8 groups has a "President".

Each of the 8 Presidents attends the Conference.
One of the 8 groups is the Alliance of Liberals & Democrats for Europe ("ALDE").

The Belgian party OFLD is in ALDE.

Guy is the (unelected, obviously) president of ALDE.

So Guy attends the Conference.

Do you see how the VOTERS are getting more and more distant?

It gets worse.
So did the Conference meet, consider a range of candidates, hold an open vote and declare the winner?

No.

Of course not.

Well did they even meet and have a debate about candidates then?

Nope.

The Conference didn't even meet and there was no vote.
Guy met up with Martin Schulz (remember him?) informally.

MS was the President of EP group Progressive Alliance of Socialists and Democrats ("PASD").

Two other group Presidents joined them.

In a backroom, they alone appointed Guy to speak for 500m people.

WITH NO VOTE AT ALL.
The Presidents of the other political groups were informed of the appointment and the announcement was made to the world that Guy was the EP spokesperson on Brexit.

An ARCH-FEDERALIST, an extremist even by EU standards, a fanatic basically had become the EP Brexit spokesperson.
Look at Guy's timeline today.

He has tweeted that the EP will refuse to approve any form of Withdrawal Agreement without the Backstop in it.

How the hell does he know?

It's supposed to be a vote. But democracy never works properly in the EU.
Even the Parliament - the only quasi-democratic institute in the whole rotten Union - is controlled, co-ordinated and centrally managed by the political groups.

Guy knows which way the EP will vote because he and few of his buddies control the EP.
This man hold the interests and the well-being of 500 million in his hands. He is a key player in a set of extremely important international negotiations.

All because his fringe party, in a small state, lost an election.

And because three other blokes decided he should be.
Try and think about this from the point of view of a French agricultural worker or a German manufacturing worker.

In what credible democratic sense does Guy speak for them?

How the hell does he know whether they want a backstop or not?

Try to follow the democratic chain?
If you cannot follow the democratic links in the chain from the people to the representative, then IT IS NOT DEMOCRACY.

If you cannot comprehend, or even ascertain, the process by which the representative obtains his power, then IT IS NOT DEMOCRACY.
If you cannot conceive of a possible democratic method by which the representative can be removed, censured or otherwise controlled by the electorate, IT IS NOT DEMOCRACY.

What is a Spanish worker supposed to do to replace Guy? Where should she start? Who does she protest to?
I've done this kind of research exercise many times with regard to the EU's democratic credentials.

I promise you the result is the same every single time.

Try it. Pick an EU bigwig and unravel where his/her power comes from.

And then try telling me the EU is democratic.

Russian and Chinese models, but with increasingly diminishing veneer of democracy.

Anyone read about Martin Selmayr's "appointment"?

Parliament calls for Selmayr’s resignation in landslide vote

Let's be honest, nothing will happen.
 
So nothing at all to do with the collapse of diesel sales or the massive slowdown in sales to the Chinese market or the structural overcapacity of car manufacturing in the EU then?
I don't think Nissan said they won't be making the X-Trail, or that they'll stop making Diesel engines altogether, just that they'll build it in Japan instead of in the UK.

But admittedly they didn't really explain their decision.

It may be that they are targeting the Chinese market and Japan is closer to China than the UK. It may be that the productivity per employee is lower in the UK than it is in Japan. It may be that they didn't get the support they were hoping for from the UK government (grants, tax relief, erc). And of course it may be Brexit. I do not know.

But what is odd is all those articles in the media blaming Nissan's decision to build the car in Japan instead of in Sunderland on the demise of the Diesel engine in the aftermath of VW Dieselgate and the global crash of the automotive industry. That makes no sense at all - how will building the car in Japan instead of the UK make any difference to any of it?

Or am I missing something?
 
But what is odd is all those articles in the media blaming Nissan's decision to build the car in Japan instead of in Sunderland on the demise of the Diesel engine in the aftermath of VW Dieselgate and the global crash of the automotive industry. That makes no sense at all - how will building the car in Japan instead of the UK make any difference to any of it?

Or am I missing something?

I suspect that there are three factors at work in all of this. The diesel issue messing with the European market. The UK EU departure uncertainty adding further doubt. And there is a shadow over the EU as well.

Result is they think the market for their cars will be smaller in this part of the world.

Suppose you were planning to build capacity for 100000 cars per year - selling 60000 in Europe and 40000 further away. Then you predict that the Europeann market will contract and you'll build 70000 cars per year with 30000 in Europe and 40000 further away. You start thinking quite hard about investing in a factory that is further away and shipping the 30000 to Europe from further away.

So yes - building the car in Japan may well make a difference according to your spreadsheets.
 
Makes sense to build them closer to where you expect the demand to be,
Europe have demonised the diesel and it's only going to get worse.
5 models, only one of which is petrol.

It would be desirable for some to blame Brexit but I'm not sure that's appropriate,
personally I think blaming EU5 & 6 might be more relevant.
 
Makes sense to build them closer to where you expect the demand to be...

You would think that... and yet strangely this is not how things seem to work for some reason.

As an example, MB build in South Africa and in America many of the cars they sell in Europe.

It seems that car manufacturers prefer to have factories scattered all around the world, with each factory specialising in specific production lines, and then ship the cars across the globe to their destination markets.

The physical location of the market or the shipping logistics do not seem to be a significant factor.

But (presumably) taxation, productivity, labour costs, currency exchange rates, trade agreements, etc, are the determining factors.

So I don't know why Nissan made the decision that they did.

It may or may not be Brexit. But my issues is that Remainers say it can only be Brexit, and Leavers say it could not be possibly be Brexit, while in reality neither group actually knows, instead they are simply using this to justify their argument.
 
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Makes sense to build them closer to where you expect the demand to be,
Europe have demonised the diesel and it's only going to get worse.
5 models, only one of which is petrol.

It would be desirable for some to blame Brexit but I'm not sure that's appropriate,
personally I think blaming EU5 & 6 might be more relevant.

Forgive me if I’m wrong but Diesel was demonised in Japan in the mid-late 90’s and has died a death in Japan ever since due to being taxed off the road after the first 3 years from registration. (Hence influx of large imported diesels on the grey-market around that time). Seems strange to move production from a country that despite dropping consumer confidence in diesel they would move production to a country where diesels are pretty much non-existent? Am I missing something?
 
Nissan made an announcement and blamed uncertainty over Brexit.

Anything else is just tittle-tattle.
 
Scott_F said:
I'm not dismissive.
:)

I'll politely disagree with you on that.

I agree Dryce. Its one of the reasons I gave up posting in this thread the first time. I came back hoping it might have toned down but alas no. Whatever I said was dismissed as 'never happened' or 'incorrect'. Seems some on here have no respect for others views or opinions and even deny others experiences. They continue their bullying, dismissive tone whilst never contributing to anything Mercedes related.
 
Seems some on here have no respect for others views or opinions and even deny others experiences.

I think compared to some of the 'discussions' I've seen it has been kept pretty civilised on the whole for a topic so polarising.

Having an opinion is fine when it is 'I like red leathers seats' or 'the smell of lavender' but when an opinion is actually a factually incorrect statement then I should hope it would be challenged. There is so much nonsense that people read and regurgitate as fact where there is really no excuse for it in this modern age that we find ourselves in this black mirror scenario with Trump as president tweeting whatever pops into his head and a hundred million americans believing it.

If we take the Nissan announcement recently as a case in point we find remainers accept the statement for what it is: 'Uncertainty over Brexit resulting in production moving elsewhere' and Brexiteers finding all sorts of reasons for it to be something else.

The UK Nissan plant is used for the main plant for export to the EU and if we leave without a deal which is a possibility then Nissan have to make a business decision as it cannot remain competitive with WTO tariffs which are 10% on complete cars.

Sunderland voted to leave by 61% so 'Turkeys voting for Christmas'.
 
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Sunderland voted to leave by 61% so 'Turkeys voting for Christmas'.

I wonder when they'll figure out that their next job will be one that the East Europeans used to do. Horrible jobs that no Brits want to do but are tolerable to the East Europeans for a short period. How about 60 hours a week (no more EU Working Time Directive) in a cold wet fish factory in Fraserburgh. After all, the fish don't cut their own heads off - it takes a Brexiteer to do that...
 
No - the Nissan withdrawal was caused by a number of factors, but Brexit is being claimed as the ONLY factor.

And give it a rest with the Brexiters are stupid bollocks, it's boring beyond belief.
 
No - the Nissan withdrawal was caused by a number of factors, but Brexit is being claimed as the ONLY factor.

And give it a rest with the Brexiters are stupid bollocks, it's boring beyond belief.

How do you know this?

Nissan, the only people who know the truth, have said it was Brexit related.
 
The UK Nissan plant is used for the main plant for export to the EU and if we leave without a deal which is a possibility then Nissan have to make a business decision as it cannot remain competitive with WTO tariffs which are 10% on complete cars.

There is a lot more to such business decisions than I will be aware of,
hi lighting Japans earlier penalty policies toward diesels being one, although on that side of the world there is more than just Japan to consider.

Business leaders will generally prefer the staus quo and will consider profits over social effects and even moral considerations. So often when I hear CEO's voice their opinions, that they are entitled to, I often just view them as trying to persuade the Plebs to stop going against their accepted norm that profits are near enough the only true consideration.

I can't see the sense in Nissan making this decision now. Very soon the uncertainty may well be over.
There is an increasing possibility, not to my liking, that Brexit will be deferred.
There is possibility that we enter an eternal customs union, with the eu in control Nisan would surely then be in the same if not better position.
Of course leaving on WTO means a lot of negotiations ahead, but I view that it isn't unreasonable to view that the eu will keep the tit tarrifs on cars reasonable for concern the tat response would hit them hard.
Nissan buggering off 2 years ago would have been understandable, but not now 'an' outcome might well be so close.
 
Investor Confidence in Eurozone Plummets to Four-Year Low -

You have to ask why Nissan isn't relocating within the EU. Diesel regulation/standards, Chinese market, or lack of confidence in the Eurozone. We have the Italian bank crisis still bubbling on.

They have a recently agreed EU trade deal which will not be as good as being in an EU location but I think Nissan only has an LCV plant in Spain so moving back to Japan is likely the most cost effective option at this point.

Regarding your link - Guido Fawkes - Media Bias/Fact Check
 
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The UK Nissan plant is used for the main plant for export to the EU and if we leave without a deal which is a possibility then Nissan have to make a business decision as it cannot remain competitive with WTO tariffs which are 10% on complete cars.
There's some very interesting analysis available on t'interweb carried out by Deloitte who analysed the effect of a no deal Brexit on the European car industry. While it has a negative effect on all manufacturers, the biggest losers by a massive margin are not UK manufacturers, but the Germans. The reality is that it's in no-one's interest to have WTO tariffs on cars, so some sort of deal is vastly more likely than the siren voices would like us to believe.

Returning to the Nissan decision, the uncertainty around Brexit is unquestionably part of it but there's another very important factor that will most certainly have influenced Nissan's decision and that is that the EU and Japan have just signed a trade deal that means EU import tariffs on cars manufactured in Japan taper to zero over the next 10 years. Remember that Nissan (and Toyota, and Honda) chose to have UK manufacturing bases so as to avoid the EU import tariffs. With those tariffs gone, the incentive for Japanese car manufacturers to have manufacturing facilities anywhere in Europe has diminished significantly. I fancy that the decision may have been accelerated by current events, but I suspect that Japanese car manufacture in the UK or anywhere else in Europe is likely to significantly diminish over the coming decade anyway.
 
How do you know this?

Nissan, the only people who know the truth, have said it was Brexit related.

Yes, they did, I have not said they did not. Amongst OTHER factors.

Even the pro-EU BBC doesn't claim so.
The real reasons Nissan pulled its investment

Nissan chooses Japan over UK for new car:
"Commenting on its decision, Nissan also said that since 2016 "the environment for the car industry in Europe has changed dramatically", including "changing emissions regulations"."
 

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