The UK Politics & Brexit Thread

[Harrythedog]

So three years down the line we still haven’t left the EU and people are still arguing. The result of the referendum has been continuously ignored by a large number of people and politicians so I ask the questions:
How much damage has been done to our democracy ?
Has the template been set for every future vote, GE, INDYREF 2 (3, 4 to infinity) to be challenged, questioned or plainly ignored?

 

[Dryce]

When Independence comes ,.

Independence calls may well be provoked by a no-deal Brexit but it completely messes the pro-EU form of independence that has dominated the last few years. If up against the reality of a hard border with the rest of the UK it may not look attractive.

Consider - an independent Scotland could find itself in Schengen as a condition of being in the EU and in effect blocked out of the CTA that covers the UK and Ireland. Or even in limbo sttuck outside Schengen and outside the CTA.

There's likely a big reality check and a recalibration needed by the SNP once this mess current mess gets to some type of resolution. They've not given much indication that they've really faced that as yet.

 

[Petrol Pete]

Your really believe that there will be a European army and that it will have compulsory military service from all member states? Really, not always easy to spot humour!

It's the only thing they Haven't got.
Flag..Check
Currency...Check
Anthem...Check
Parliament...Check (of sorts)
Army...not yet, but working on it.

 

[Dryce]

but along with federal taxation it is a natural progression to fit the eu ambitions.

I don't think compulsory military service has been part of that natural progression.

 

[Swotty]

Your really believe that there will be a European army and that it will have compulsory military service from all member states? Really, not always easy to spot humour!

All the information you need to make your mind up about this on readily available on t'internet and even the UK press.

Hint, start with PESCO - which is the official "front" and then delve deeper.... much deeper.

As for other concerns:

Merkel says euro members must be prepared to cede sovereignty - Reuters

Merkel: EU Nations Must Prepare to Hand Sovereignty over to Brussels

The first from 2012, the second from 2018.

So, Brussels will decide taxes, laws, movement of people (or not) for the whole of the EU. Individual countries/nations will cease to exist.

Welcome to the New World Order unfolding right in front of your eyes.

 

[Harrythedog]

1. Your really believe that there will be a European army and that it will have compulsory military service from all member states? Really, not always easy to spot humour!

   
   It would solve the EU’s horrendous and potentially apocalyptic youth unemployment rate
   

 

[m80]

You don't ever get anything for nothing.

The concentration of wealth down south is disproportionate. It also makes the calculations on justification of astronomical public expenditure in the south a lot easier.

The real loser in this is middle UK. The area between Scotland and the SE of England. Scotland and Wales and NI have voices (well NI could have a voice if it chose to sort itself out) that areas of England do not.

No arguments there.
There is more wealth darn sarf, and I think you pointed out previously that there is a natural draw toward London due to geographical location and then that perpetuates.
Greater percieved advantage is there so more will be drawn to those percieved advantages.
Generally it feels nicer down there than in many parts up here. The civil engineering and attention to the local environment is superior, but I did say generally.

I know the 1990 City of Culture has acute traffic problems, well it certainly did back in 1986 when I worked there for a while, and I don't imagine things have improved. But driving 13 miles from Hammersmith to Greenwich took over 2 hours on an early(ish) Saturday morning. Flippin' agony. I don't want to imagine that at 8:30 Monday morning.
Walking the streets in the centre is sooo slow due to the numbers bringing their welcome import to the sights.
The tube is fantastically efficient, as long as you don't use it in rush hours.
Nice to visit, nicer to get out of there. They can keep it.

Mind with our ever increasing population it wouldn't surprise me if there are queues to cross the Glen Nevis bridge at the Youth Hostel to ascend the Bigger Ben these days.

 

[Dryce]

It's the only thing they Haven't got.

Army...not yet, but working on it.

A cohesive foreign policy is quite a useful thing to have as well.

As regards military - NATO sits out there as an established body. The EU may - as part of the greater plan - want to have its own military but it needs to be paid for - and if it supercedes NATO then there is the US relationship that needs to be re-balanced.

The dominant European NATO countries are UK and France. Both also have independent nuclear deterrents. By comparison Germany which dominates economically and politically is - to be blunt - a bit of a slacker.

 

[m80]

I don't think compulsory military service has been part of that natural progression.

1. 
   
   It would solve the EU’s horrendous and potentially apocalyptic youth unemployment rate

No it isn't as fashionable as it was,
but why need compulsory the poor sods have nowt else to do in life

 

[Nicebutdim]

Maybe not the most obvious intellectual giant but Terry Christian posted this today;

Lets say we Brexit on 31st October. Can any leave voters tell me what problems in their lives will now be solved? How will having left the EU improve life for you and your family? What is the 1st thing that you hope the government does that the EU were preventing it from doing?

Well to some extent they will have restored my faith in British democracy. They will have honoured the result of the referendum.

 

[Dryce]

Nice to visit, nicer to get out of there. They can keep it.

London is one of the great cities of the world.

If I was starting out I can see the attractions. However being older and established elsewhere that opportunity has passed and I can see more downsides than upsides.

 

[Deleted member 6183]

Am I the only one that thinks this whole thing is massively ironic in that we held a vote 3yrs ago. Vote leave was predicated on 'taking back control' as the EU is incompetent/corrupt/holding us back etc etc. In the last 3yrs we have shown our absolute incompetence to manage ourselves. The very thing that we say is wrong with the EU. Our leaders and this nation seem incapable of dealing with disagreement on Brexit without resorting to insults. Everything now seems polarised by how you voted three ago. I am normally an optimist but this is bloody depressing! We are now resorting to force as debate and consent failed! Jan 1933 Hitler dissolved the German parliament and removed all parties that disagreed with his. Subsequent elections were only with Nazi party and guest parties. Sound familiar? The way this thread is going is what worries me. I can see Scotland and Wales wanting out of the UK as 'they' didn't vote for Brexit. Neither did London and there are more in London than Scotland so should London come out. Where does it stop? This is the opposite of 'taking back control'!

Waled did vote to leave.

 

[Dryce]

1. 
   
   It would solve the EU’s horrendous and potentially apocalyptic youth unemployment rate

It doesn't necessarily lead to an effective and deployable modern military.

One of the problems these days is that the level of fitness and intelligence required even for a basic role as a squadie is suprisingly high.

 

[c63chris]

Interesting responses to the question. Nothing concrete in terms of benefit to the individual. Just removing a perceived threat of compulsory military service and honouring the referendum. That’s worth a lot then

 

[c63chris]

Waled did vote to leave.

Yes but will they want to be part of the UK if they see Scotland leaving? All the arguments about not representing the population, not voting for the government apply. Add Northern Ireland to it and there goes the UK!

 

[m80]

Interesting responses to the question. Nothing concrete in terms of benefit to the individual. Just removing a perceived threat of compulsory military service and honouring the referendum. That’s worth a lot then

You missed my point that Westminster will have more of my money to squader than Brussels will.
We must be able to save loads on not having to pay the proportion of Junkers wine bill.

 

[AltonAnt]

You missed my point that Westminster will have more of my money to squader than Brussels will.
We must be able to save loads on not having to pay the proportion of Junkers wine bill.

Balance that with the downturn of our economy and you have much less overall so still no actual benefit.

 

[m80]

Balance that with the downturn of our economy and you have much less overall so still no actual benefit.

Since the Michael Fish screw up all forecasts look at the worst case,
so much so that Larisa is always scared to go sailing at w/e. Come Monday and we've missed another nice w/e's sailing.

 

[Dryce]

Yes but will they want to be part of the UK if they see Scotland leaving?

Wales is in a different situation with regard to Scotland and NI.

Geographic and - what you might call 'legislative' distance is less.

 

[Harrythedog]

It doesn't necessarily lead to an effective and deployable modern military.

One of the problems these days is that the level of fitness and intelligence required even for a basic role as a squadie is suprisingly high.

Agreed but it’ll make the figures look good, a politicians dream