The UK Politics & Brexit Thread

[Baldbloke]

Did anyone seek the opinions of teenagers (or anyone) when we were taken into the EU ?

I was just too young to vote. But then it was to join a common market and not to be subservient to EU courts or to be regulated by them


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[renault12ts]

Wrong section, perhaps move to the joke area!

I thought this was the joke area.

 

[Baldbloke]

And yet 3 years on we haven't left and its not about anyone being hurt its about finding a compromise maybe.

But that compromise (just the Withdrawal Agreement) comes at an enormous expense (33/39 billion) EU tax conformity, and regulation of our armed forces, being the guarantor of between 200 and 500 billion pounds and further continuation of regulation, and EU access to our fishing waters.

And that’s before even agreeing on a trade deal, the terms of which are a total unknown.

Leaving without an agreement gives them little, a probable loss of considerable export trade (as world food prices by their nature are cheaper than CAP farm subsidised EU prices) while giving the U.K. the necessary autonomy to set tax and tariffs as required while trading on WTO until other agreements are finalised.

I’d say **** em, and let them come back to the table when they’re ready.


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[Deleted member 6183]

But I want counting twice,

I saw this and thought of you:

The battle for 'Workington Man': Older, white men in Leave-backing towns targets | Daily Mail Online

 

[Bellow]

What a ridiculous assumption. If no good ever came with dealing with the USA no country would ever bother entering negotiations. It’s only because of the enormous possibilities that we (like the rest of the world) are willing to see what’s possible.

You seem scared of any change.Perhaps that’s why you’re so negative [emoji848]


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I saw this and thought of you:

The battle for 'Workington Man': Older, white men in Leave-backing towns targets | Daily Mail Online

From linked article:

''He favours security over freedom, thinks the economy and national culture is moving away from his views, and voted Leave.''

Who is 'scared of change'?

 

[Baldbloke]

Corbyn faced a huge rebellion from his own MPs last night as 100 of them refused to back a general election as he ordered them to.
The Labour boss, 70, forced his team to back going early to the polls, but almost half of them defied their leader and didn’t vote for one on December 12.
11 Labour MPs actually voted against an early vote – including Owen Smith, Barry Sheerman and Margaret Beckett.
Just 127 Labour MPs backed Mr Corbyn’s call.
Senior members of his frontbench team had warned him not to back an election call, fearing losing dozens of seats.
One Labour MP told The Sun: “Corbyn couldn’t win second prize in a beauty contest in Monopoly”.
“He’s about to give the nastiest Tory Government ever a majority and has fallen into the biggest elephant trap since Dumbo.
“Labour members who still think the sun shines out of his **** are about to get s**t on from a great height by voters when they knock their doors and are blinded by reality.
“The only silver lining is him getting more time on the allotment for Christmas.”
And Mr Sheerman said it was “sheer madness to hold the General Election in December and on Boris Johnson’s agenda”.
He said there were frontbenchers and whips on the verge of resigning over the decision.
“A clear majority of our Shadow Cabinet were against a December election yesterday but Jeremy Corbyn has been persuaded to override them after interventions from Milne and Karie Murphy,” he tweeted.
Another backbencher said the decision was “f****g mad” and “proof that turkeys vote for Christmas”.
One told MailOnline: “They think they are on the brink of a brave new Socialist dawn.
“It just gets Johnson completely off the hook.”
The Daily Telegraph claimed the decision to go to a snap poll was questioned by deputy leader Tom Watson, as well as shadow chancellor John McDonnell and shadow foreign secretary Emily Thornberry.
And one shadow cabinet source told the paper: “Look at Scotland, look at Wales, they are f****d.
“This could be really damaging in Wales and Scotland, but up and down the country we are going to lose seats.'”
MP Paul Farrelly told the Labour boss to his face yesterday he would be defying him and would not vote for an early poll.
In the Commons he stood up and told colleagues: “I shall be voting against an early election today and encourage as many of colleagues to defy the threats to do so.
“The reality is the uncertainty of an outcome most certainly does not take No Deal off the table.”

“Corbyn couldn’t win second prize in a beauty contest in Monopoly”. [emoji23][emoji23]

“They think they are on the brink of a brave new Socialist dawn.” [emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]

And they say the Tories are divided[emoji23]


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[geraldrobins]

But that compromise (just the Withdrawal Agreement)


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I wasn't referring to that compromise. Any compromise is going to satisfy hard core leavers or remainers of course.

 

[geraldrobins]

Corbyn faced a huge rebellion from his own MPs last night as 100 of them refused to back a general election as he ordered them to.
The Labour boss, 70, forced his team to back going early to the polls, but almost half of them defied their leader and didn’t vote for one on December 12.
11 Labour MPs actually voted against an early vote – including Owen Smith, Barry Sheerman and Margaret Beckett.
Just 127 Labour MPs backed Mr Corbyn’s call.
Senior members of his frontbench team had warned him not to back an election call, fearing losing dozens of seats.
One Labour MP told The Sun: “Corbyn couldn’t win second prize in a beauty contest in Monopoly”.
“He’s about to give the nastiest Tory Government ever a majority and has fallen into the biggest elephant trap since Dumbo.
“Labour members who still think the sun shines out of his **** are about to get s**t on from a great height by voters when they knock their doors and are blinded by reality.
“The only silver lining is him getting more time on the allotment for Christmas.”
And Mr Sheerman said it was “sheer madness to hold the General Election in December and on Boris Johnson’s agenda”.
He said there were frontbenchers and whips on the verge of resigning over the decision.
“A clear majority of our Shadow Cabinet were against a December election yesterday but Jeremy Corbyn has been persuaded to override them after interventions from Milne and Karie Murphy,” he tweeted.
Another backbencher said the decision was “f****g mad” and “proof that turkeys vote for Christmas”.
One told MailOnline: “They think they are on the brink of a brave new Socialist dawn.
“It just gets Johnson completely off the hook.”
The Daily Telegraph claimed the decision to go to a snap poll was questioned by deputy leader Tom Watson, as well as shadow chancellor John McDonnell and shadow foreign secretary Emily Thornberry.
And one shadow cabinet source told the paper: “Look at Scotland, look at Wales, they are f****d.
“This could be really damaging in Wales and Scotland, but up and down the country we are going to lose seats.'”
MP Paul Farrelly told the Labour boss to his face yesterday he would be defying him and would not vote for an early poll.
In the Commons he stood up and told colleagues: “I shall be voting against an early election today and encourage as many of colleagues to defy the threats to do so.
“The reality is the uncertainty of an outcome most certainly does not take No Deal off the table.”

“Corbyn couldn’t win second prize in a beauty contest in Monopoly”. [emoji23][emoji23]

“They think they are on the brink of a brave new Socialist dawn.” [emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]

And they say the Tories are divided[emoji23]


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We will find out in December but my feeling is that it will be another hung parliament, although there may be a coalition.

 

[Baldbloke]

I wasn't referring to that compromise. Any compromise is going to satisfy hard core leavers or remainers of course.

Since Boris’s compromise doesn’t seem to get Leavers too ecstatic, what kind of compromise were you thinking about that respects the Leave vote?


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[geraldrobins]

Since Boris’s compromise doesn’t seem to get Leavers too ecstatic, what kind of compromise were you thinking about that respects the Leave vote?


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I have no idea and I dont know what the leave vote meant. ie No deal or a deal?

 

[Nicebutdim]

Returning the whip to a bunch of traitors appears to be a particularly stupid move. That’ll push a few more leave voters to vote BXP.

I never fail to underestimate the stupidity of politicians.

Labour are just as bad having just handed Boris a “get out of jail free” card.

One good thing is that we will see the back of Rudd and Sourberry.

 

[m80]

I saw this and thought of you:

The battle for 'Workington Man': Older, white men in Leave-backing towns targets | Daily Mail Online

As said previously this is too soon to predict the outcome.

It shouldn't be a Brexit GE but will be.

To date it feels like most parties, and even part of Labour MP's, are going to bury Corbyn.
I feel he will be ripped apart for indecisiveness.
Their, well more McDonnels, policies in making are too extreme and ill thought out to be attractive to any but hard core socialist voters.

There are predictions that LibDems will come out favourably, they might find that attacks on perceptions of their undemocratic desires cost rather than reward. Although so far that isn't looking to be the case.

TBP may lose potential votes due partly to their not being a big enough force and any vote merely diluting the Tory potential to 'Get Brexit Done'. Also partly because the WTO isn't as popular as the TBP might hope.
BJ isn't offering any pact, yet, as that would encourage TBP votes that he hopes for with his less extreme WA. So in hope that the UK can move on voters may take his compromise as WTO isn't looking like it will be a likely outcome if they do hope for that.
But let's see when they get more airtime, as it hasn't been as apparent lately.

I would expect the SNP to get a near monopoly up there. Not because I think that a 2nd Indy Ref is the greatest desire but because with Labour and Tories becoming also rans up there the electorate don't really have anyone else to follow these days.

But ask me again in 2 or 3 weeks when the campaigns are shaping up, and ask again after a couple of live debates.

BJ won't run from the spotlight like May and that cost her lots last time, and he is percieved to be capable of leadership. May just tried to be a strong 2nd Thatcher but couldn't hack it.

Corbyn stays calm in debate. He is measured and stays on message. He comes across as trustworthy but just not capable. In debate he may lose presence due to the others anger and rude interuptions.

Sturgeon will need a bucket or 2 of cold water to calm her down. The more she speaks the more dislikable she becomes, but that's speaking as an Englishman who thinks she takes too many anger pills.

 

[Swotty]

As said previously this is too soon to predict the outcome.

It shouldn't be a Brexit GE but will be.

To date it feels like most parties, and even part of Labour MP's, are going to bury Corbyn.
I feel he will be ripped apart for indecisiveness.
Their, well more McDonnels, policies in making are too extreme and ill thought out to be attractive to any but hard core socialist voters.

There are predictions that LibDems will come out favourably, they might find that attacks on perceptions of their undemocratic desires cost rather than reward. Although so far that isn't looking to be the case.

TBP may lose potential votes due partly to their not being a big enough force and any vote merely diluting the Tory potential to 'Get Brexit Done'. Also partly because the WTO isn't as popular as the TBP might hope.
BJ isn't offering any pact, yet, as that would encourage TBP votes that he hopes for with his less extreme WA. So in hope that the UK can move on voters may take his compromise as WTO isn't looking like it will be a likely outcome if they do hope for that.
But let's see when they get more airtime, as it hasn't been as apparent lately.

I would expect the SNP to get a near monopoly up there. Not because I think that a 2nd Indy Ref is the greatest desire but because with Labour and Tories becoming also rans up there the electorate don't really have anyone else to follow these days.

But ask me again in 2 or 3 weeks when the campaigns are shaping up, and ask again after a couple of live debates.

BJ won't run from the spotlight like May and that cost her lots last time, and he is percieved to be capable of leadership. May just tried to be a strong 2nd Thatcher but couldn't hack it.

Corbyn stays calm in debate. He is measured and stays on message. He comes across as trustworthy but just not capable. In debate he may lose presence due to the others anger and rude interuptions.

Sturgeon will need a bucket or 2 of cold water to calm her down. The more she speaks the more dislikable she becomes, but that's speaking as an Englishman who thinks she takes too many anger pills.

Good assessment ... but I don't agree on Corbyn. He is basically a professional agitator - see him at PMQs .... strident and ever-rising voice, just as if he were adressing a Momentum gathering. He will be trained, granted, but the others know how to push his buttons.

As you also say, there's a long way to go and single things have a way of affecting the public's view ... e.g. Brown's "bigotted woman" comment. Much will change in the next 6 weeks.

 

[DSM10000]

That's a moot point, because we didn't know what joining the EEC meant back then or in other words, what we were voting for.

I thought this was the joke area.

Only the persistent temper tantrums of the remain side....

 

[DSM10000]

Why?

So you would not have to lose?

Would you advocate thew same terms for Scottish and Welsh Independence? If not why not or is it you only support a rule that will be of benefit to your own views?

It looks likely we will have an election soon, it is possible that the UK will elect a Government whose policies I strongly disagree with, will i whinge, bitch wallow in self pity and try to find a way to reverse it or just accept it was a majority decision of the people (I suppose you could call it a people's vote? ) and work with it??

I note R12Ts has not replied to this (and many other questions............)

 

[Scott_F]

What a ridiculous assumption. If no good ever came with dealing with the USA no country would ever bother entering negotiations. It’s only because of the enormous possibilities that we (like the rest of the world) are willing to see what’s possible.

You seem scared of any change. Perhaps that’s why you’re so negative.

I still don't understand why you seem to think that the UK will just give its NHS away to US Pharma (or otherwise buy more-expensively from them).

You keep reiterating that various newspapers and documentaries say it will be so.

My question to you is - very simply - why, in your opinion, the UK will agree for this to happen?

It isn't an assumption.

Once we are separated from the EU herd, we will be desperate for new trade deals to compensate for our loss of access to the Customs Union and the Single Market. Everyone will know this and no one more so than the US who are viewing it as an unprecedented opportunity to access a single, large, developed market from which they were previously shut out:

This is what the U.S. wants from the U.K. before it will sign a trade deal

"But others here worry that the U.K. will become a global minnow when detached from the E.U. bloc, risking getting picked off by an American superpower that is uninterested in bilateral wins, only intent on competitive nationalism and putting America first."

You have to worry when Johnson sits next to Trump and, knowing the inevitable voter backlash from messing with the NHS, declares it to be "off the table" with regards to trade talks. Meanwhile, Trump just smiles wryly knowing that US drug companies, eyeing profits of $BILLIONS per year, have already spent several $100 MILLION to ensure that it will be at the centre of any deal.

We will be negotiating from a position of weakness and will have to agree to things that we don't wish to in order to get any sort of deal. They have the economic, political and financial leverage that we can only dream about meaning that any deal will be great news for them and they will not be coming out second best:

"The White House makes no secret that it sees Brexit as an opportunity to renegotiate the relationship in its favor: a chance to boost American jobs and economic growth."

 

[renault12ts]

I note R12Ts has not replied to this (and many other questions............)

I generally don't log on when you want answers and anyway the way you lot get on when a "remoaner" dares to raise his head above the parapet...and yes, I would advocate the same for Scottish and Welsh votes.

 

[Deleted member 6183]

Only the persistent temper tantrums of the remain side....

LOL.

 

[markjay]

It isn't an assumption.

Once we are separated from the EU herd, we will be desperate for new trade deals to compensate for our loss of access to the Customs Union and the Single Market...

So... if and when Brexit happens (the uncertainty is because there's stil a chance that it won't), and if the UK is free to negotiate its own trade deals (again, there's still a chance that we'll still be in the Customs Union and/or in the Single Market after Brexit), then we will be 'desperate' for new trade deals.

Fair enough. I have no issue with your reasoning. My question to you is one of terminology rather than ideology: do you not agree that the chain of events described above qualifies for the collective term 'assumption'?

 

[Bellow]

TTIP.
From memory, TTIP would have given the USA access to the NHS (via the EU) and the framework allowed US corporations to sue national governments if any action of theirs was deemed to in any way challenge the profitability of any involved corporations.
Last discussion were October 2016 - mere months after the UK announced its intention to leave the EU.

Anyone who believes the NHS is safe is living in cloud cuckoo land. From the intention of TTIP, devalued Sterling (already, £billions of UK assets have been sold to foreign entities for this reason alone) and the real possibility of the NHS being unaffordable in anything other than a Brexit that is a roaring economic success.

''Sorry we have to privatise the NHS but it is a consequence of the Brexit you all said you knew, understood, and wanted'' said a government spokesman.
Go on, accuse me of 'project fear'. You had better be right.