The UK Politics & Brexit Thread

[Big Janner]

And that's fine with the EU as long as he secures his fish and then let's the EU get on with the deal. But Frau Merkel will not be happy if he messes things up for everyone just because of his stupid fish. Ze Germans have loads of cars they want to sell us... and they don't need our fish. Nor do many other EU member states who don't fish in our waters anyway.

But also we don't need our own fish... or, at least, we don't eat them. It seems that we fish herring that we mostly export to Norway and the Netherlands, and we fish shellfish, lobsters, crabs and langostines that we mostly export to France and Spain. But we like to eat Cod and Haddock which we import in great numbers. So the UK imports 70% of the fish it eats, and exports 80% of what it catches.

Toys for boys... now, if Trump managed to refrain from pressing that big red button on his desk during the four years he was in office in the US, surely Macron can stop playing with his Veto right and set it aside.

You forget, Mr macron is French
The French are always right
The French have the right to have whatever they want
They won the war

Note
all the above applicable to French politics only, not the Frenchman on the street outside Paris

 

[st13phil]

Fish is making the headlines, but is to some extent a sideshow.

The real issue is what Barnier is calling the Level Playing Field, which is just a different name for dynamic regulatory alignment. Let's be clear what the EU are demanding regarding that:

• If the EU brings in new rules and the UK doesn’t follow suit, then the EU has the right unilaterally to impose tariffs, without recourse to independent arbitration.
• The UK would have no right to impose retaliatory tariffs, nor would there be any kind of quid pro quo if we introduced new rules: the EU would be under no obligation to follow suit.

Would any sane British government agree to that?

 

[markjay]

There's a cynical view that says that the EU are trying to humiliate us in a sort of parting shot.

It has been said here before that the fisheries have no significant impact on British economy as a whole (though it is obviously an important issue for the fishing communities around the UK).

The issue of fishing, however, was used repeatedly in the pro-Brexit rhetoric, among others by NF in the run-up to the referendum and also by TM during the first WA negotiations, as a physical example of our sovereignty, perhaps in an attempt to simplify the message to the British public because it is easier to imagine Sovereignty in tangible terms that in abstract ones.

Either way, the result is that the fisheries issue is now etched in people's minds as one of the pillars of our independence of the EU, and without a clear victory on this symbolic topic the WA will be seen by many over here (perhaps wrongly) as a defeat.

As this is why the EU are allowing Macron his little game with the fish.

But, as I said, this is the cynical view.

 

[Flyinspanner]

Who would be in his shoes at the moment?

Well, considering he’s managed to have to go into isolation yet again after holding a face to face meeting with a group of back benchers (breaking the govts own rules on the numbers of people gathering) and then one fell ill and tested COVID positive....

Hes not exactly the brightest bloke in any room is he?
He doesn’t learn from his mistakes.
Hes arrogant and filled with self importance.
He wants a “legacy” - and it doesn’t matter a jot if the UK suffers for it.

Frankly it wouldn’t surprise me if the stumbling block wasn’t a demand for the brexit deal to be formally called the “Johnson Deal” binding throughout the world

 

[glojo]

Every Tuesday for me is fresh sea bass day. My wife and daughter will have freshly caught cod or similar. Yes, we do catch our own cod but yes we also import this species. For decades we have had a local fishmonger go to Brixham fishmarket and boy does he get there at an inconceivably early hour, but this freshly caught fish is then delivered to our door.

The English Channel will have to be divided between us and France, but should the North Atlantic, North Sea have a 200-mile economic exclusion zone and should that be non-negotiable? This is certainly the case for other countries with coastlines The detail is in the wording 'exclusion zone' We learnt this lesson from Iceland. No sharing, none, zero, zilch, otherwise should we be sharing our oil, gas etc?

If we settle for a quota type arrangement then do we have the capability to enforce any suggested agreement that might get negotiated? Once the doors are opened, enforcement would be a very sad joke, unless folks know otherwise??.

Or, should we trust these foreign boats to catch only certain species? Should we then expect these very same boats to throw back those fish they are not entitled to catch? It would be extremely naive to expect that, plus those fish that are thrown back would be dead and the numbers of available fish for our fishermen to catch is depleted.

Total ban is far easier to enforce and can be done digitally or electronically. Only allowing certain species to be caught by foreign-flagged vessels would for our nation be all but impossible to enforce, my thoughts are the only way this can be done is by boarding and we simply do not have the boats\ships\man\woman power to do this.

 

[st13phil]

my thoughts are the only way this can be done is by boarding and we simply do not have the boats\ships\man\woman power to do this.

As with all enforcement, you don't need to deal with every infraction, just one or two bigger ones to make the point.

Boarding and confiscating a couple of the large trawler ships and holding them until the industry as a whole falls in line would be pretty effective.

 

[st13phil]

The issue of fishing, however, was used repeatedly in the pro-Brexit rhetoric, among others by NF in the run-up to the referendum and also by TM during the first WA negotiations, as a physical example of our sovereignty, perhaps in an attempt to simplify the message to the British public because it is easier to imagine Sovereignty in tangible terms that in abstract ones.

It's a totemic issue mainly because Ted Heath surreptitiously gifted it to the EU to the massive detriment of a UK industry that was at the time significant in size.

The reality is that, with a deal, we would happily provide the fishing fleet of other EU countries licence to fish in our waters. And that's the important principle: the UK decides who has access to the UK's territorial waters and what can be done within them, not the EU.

 

[ChipChop]

British holidaymakers will be barred from the European Union from 1 January under current Covid-19 safety restrictions, with the EU commission indicating there will be no exemption for the UK.

Only a handful of countries with low coronavirus rates are exempt from rules that prohibit non-essential visitors from outside the EU and European Economic Area (EEA) – with the UK included only until the end of the Brexit transition period.

There will, however, be an exemption for Northern Ireland residents travelling to the Republic of Ireland. EU member states agreed in October to adopt a European council proposal to allow non-essential travel from a small group of countries with lower levels of Covid cases including Australia, New Zealand and South Korea.

An EU commission spokesman last week said there were no plans to extend that to the UK. “This is a decision for the council to make,” he said.

Within the EEA, or Schengen-associated states, Norway has also confirmed it will bar UK visitors from 1 January, according to the Financial Times.

The imminent bracketing of British tourists with those of other non-EU countries such as Albania and Turkey underlines the potential impact of a no-deal Brexit. EU member states can override the European council recommendations in theory, should they wish to.

Holidaymakers from Great Britain barred from EU after 1 January under Covid rules

European commission indicates Britons will face ban on non-essential travel at end of Brexit transition

www.theguardian.com

 

[flowrider]

There's a cynical view that says that the EU are trying to humiliate us in a sort of parting shot.

It has been said here before that the fisheries have no significant impact on British economy as a whole (though it is obviously an important issue for the fishing communities around the UK).

The issue of fishing, however, was used repeatedly in the pro-Brexit rhetoric, among others by NF in the run-up to the referendum and also by TM during the first WA negotiations, as a physical example of our sovereignty, perhaps in an attempt to simplify the message to the British public because it is easier to imagine Sovereignty in tangible terms that in abstract ones.

Either way, the result is that the fisheries issue is now etched in people's minds as one of the pillars of our independence of the EU, and without a clear victory on this symbolic topic the WA will be seen by many over here (perhaps wrongly) as a defeat.

As this is why the EU are allowing Macron his little game with the fish.

But, as I said, this is the cynical view.

Not forgetting that fisheries is particularly important where Scotland is concerned. No fishing deal and likely more fuel for independence but with a fishing deal no Scottish fisherman in their right mind would vote for independence and rejoining the EU.

 

[flowrider]

Every Tuesday for me is fresh sea bass day. My wife and daughter will have freshly caught cod or similar. Yes, we do catch our own cod but yes we also import this species. For decades we have had a local fishmonger go to Brixham fishmarket and boy does he get there at an inconceivably early hour, but this freshly caught fish is then delivered to our door.

The English Channel will have to be divided between us and France, but should the North Atlantic, North Sea have a 200-mile economic exclusion zone and should that be non-negotiable? This is certainly the case for other countries with coastlines The detail is in the wording 'exclusion zone' We learnt this lesson from Iceland. No sharing, none, zero, zilch, otherwise should we be sharing our oil, gas etc?

If we settle for a quota type arrangement then do we have the capability to enforce any suggested agreement that might get negotiated? Once the doors are opened, enforcement would be a very sad joke, unless folks know otherwise??.

Or, should we trust these foreign boats to catch only certain species? Should we then expect these very same boats to throw back those fish they are not entitled to catch? It would be extremely naive to expect that, plus those fish that are thrown back would be dead and the numbers of available fish for our fishermen to catch is depleted.

Total ban is far easier to enforce and can be done digitally or electronically. Only allowing certain species to be caught by foreign-flagged vessels would for our nation be all but impossible to enforce, my thoughts are the only way this can be done is by boarding and we simply do not have the boats\ships\man\woman power to do this.

Have you not seen the programmes on TV, if any fish that is not allowed is caught they are thrown back into the sea, dead or alive, or the captain is fined.

 

[Harrythedog]

For those in any doubt these are the waters the EU don’t want the UK to be able to control. You won’t see this image on the BBC

 

[flowrider]

British holidaymakers will be barred from the European Union from 1 January under current Covid-19 safety restrictions, with the EU commission indicating there will be no exemption for the UK.

Only a handful of countries with low coronavirus rates are exempt from rules that prohibit non-essential visitors from outside the EU and European Economic Area (EEA) – with the UK included only until the end of the Brexit transition period.

There will, however, be an exemption for Northern Ireland residents travelling to the Republic of Ireland. EU member states agreed in October to adopt a European council proposal to allow non-essential travel from a small group of countries with lower levels of Covid cases including Australia, New Zealand and South Korea.

An EU commission spokesman last week said there were no plans to extend that to the UK. “This is a decision for the council to make,” he said.

Within the EEA, or Schengen-associated states, Norway has also confirmed it will bar UK visitors from 1 January, according to the Financial Times.

The imminent bracketing of British tourists with those of other non-EU countries such as Albania and Turkey underlines the potential impact of a no-deal Brexit. EU member states can override the European council recommendations in theory, should they wish to.

Holidaymakers from Great Britain barred from EU after 1 January under Covid rules

European commission indicates Britons will face ban on non-essential travel at end of Brexit transition

www.theguardian.com

Not unexpected and perfectly reasonable IMO.

 

[st13phil]

Not unexpected and perfectly reasonable IMO.

Except it’s not up to the EU Commission whether access is allowed or not under Covid restrictions, that has long been derogated to individual countries within the EU.

 

[ChipChop]

Not unexpected and perfectly reasonable IMO.

It would be reasonable if the test used was able to establish if someone had a live infectious virus. Nucleic acid testing (a blood test) for example, not a PCR test or Lateral Flow test.

 

[glojo]

Have you not seen the programmes on TV, if any fish that is not allowed is caught they are thrown back into the sea, dead or alive, or the captain is fined.

Hi flowrider
That question is clearly aimed at me and if you had read my post.....

Quote:

Or, should we trust these foreign boats to catch only certain species? Should we then expect these very same boats to throw back those fish they are not entitled to catch? It would be extremely naive to expect that, plus those fish that are thrown back would be dead and the numbers of available fish for our fishermen to catch is depleted.

Folks talk about Scotland and their fishing industry, here we only have the fish industry, no North Sea Oil, no shipbuilding industry. The only industry of any size is sadly the fishing industry and I guess the truth is indeed that this industry is minuscule when compared to other industries. It is sad how we deal in statistics and not human beings... Sell out the fishing industry and some of our towns will become the mining villages of South Wales!!!

 

[Nat]

It's been an interesting week and there is now a new deadline of Sunday evening/night - who'd a thought another deadline.

What the EU has done is given BoJo the perfect excuse to a "no deal"

If they'd thrown in some good positioning bargaining points then that would have put the UK on the back foot, then they may claim to be glorious in looking for a way out. How things stand I can see even the remainer Tories, the ERG and even some Labour MP's backing BoJo.

The stance of the EU to still expect fish for 12 months or until a deal is done is quite funny. Especially considering BoJo's meal with VDL the other day. They had fish. All things aside the EU are now linking fish for the 12 months or whatever to flights, energy and other stuff that is already pencilled in anyway.

Apparently both Macron and Merkel would not take phone calls from BoJo today. While I understand the EU have said they are not allowed. It then looks like "no deal" a dead cert. It doesn't cover the EU with any type of glory to get a deal done, does it. How on earth they've made BoJo look good is beyond me .....

Edited to add. I did see on the Beeb that the EU had agreed the CV19 bailout last night but can't see anything today fo confirmation.

 

[Swotty]

British holidaymakers will be barred from the European Union from 1 January under current Covid-19 safety restrictions, with the EU commission indicating there will be no exemption for the UK.

Only a handful of countries with low coronavirus rates are exempt from rules that prohibit non-essential visitors from outside the EU and European Economic Area (EEA) – with the UK included only until the end of the Brexit transition period.

There will, however, be an exemption for Northern Ireland residents travelling to the Republic of Ireland. EU member states agreed in October to adopt a European council proposal to allow non-essential travel from a small group of countries with lower levels of Covid cases including Australia, New Zealand and South Korea.

An EU commission spokesman last week said there were no plans to extend that to the UK. “This is a decision for the council to make,” he said.

Within the EEA, or Schengen-associated states, Norway has also confirmed it will bar UK visitors from 1 January, according to the Financial Times.

The imminent bracketing of British tourists with those of other non-EU countries such as Albania and Turkey underlines the potential impact of a no-deal Brexit. EU member states can override the European council recommendations in theory, should they wish to.

Holidaymakers from Great Britain barred from EU after 1 January under Covid rules

European commission indicates Britons will face ban on non-essential travel at end of Brexit transition

www.theguardian.com

That is due to the almost (1922) 100-year-old agreement between the UK and Eire on the Common Travel Area. No exemption required .... the CTA supersedes any funny business on cross-border crossings and continues wef 1st January.

p.s. also covers the Channel Islands.

 

[Dryce]

That is due to the almost (1922) 100-year-old agreement between the UK and Eire on the Common Travel Area. No exemption required .... the CTA supersedes any funny business on cross-border crossings and continues wef 1st January.

p.s. also covers the Channel Islands.

CTA is often forgotten.

If The Great Communicator gets her IndyRef 2 then she may have to face up to whether Scotland would be obliged to join Schengen as a condition of joining the EU - or perhaps whether the rest of the UK would allow Scotland to remain within the CTA.

 

[Nat]

Indy Ref2 will never happen. Joining the EU too.

They had shot at it and lost. Why should they get another "once in a lifetime" vote while the SNP have demonstrated to be the worst of the worst. Deaths in care homes, education now the lowest to name a couple.

Oh, and the Salmond enquiry too? Corrupt to the core. Little Nicky and her hubby doing what they want? Yeah, corrupt while filling their pockets with tax paying money.

 

[Swotty]

CTA is often forgotten.

If The Great Communicator gets her IndyRef 2 then she may have to face up to whether Scotland would be obliged to join Schengen as a condition of joining the EU - or perhaps whether the rest of the UK would allow Scotland to remain within the CTA.

I don't thing Cummings lost sight of it and now is the time to bring it into play. I doubt he has really left his position of influence.

The great communicator will shortly be shown to be communicating untruths (we know she already does this, but the Salmond fiasco will do for her).

Anyway, bringing back fishing will see off the SNP and so-called indyref. 'Twil be tougher. though, if Salmond does indeed come back into Scottish politics, which is looking likely, I have to say.

Just my 2 penn'orth ..... I went to Dumfries once, 25 years ago!