The UK Politics & Brexit Thread

[glojo]

Regarding anything the BBC says are facts when they talk about Brexit, then sadly I always need to check what they claim

I have highlighted some text from this link UK fisheries.net

Aren’t you just standing up for the industrial fisheries who are depleting fish stocks with their massive factory vessels while the small guys are suffering?

There isn’t any ‘industrial fishing’ in the UK – this refers to hoovering up fish to process in to products such as fishmeal. This is a far cry from the environmentally sustainable, hi-tech and efficient systems used on UK vessels that minimise by-catch to world-leading levels. There’s also no evidence for the oft-heard assertion that big boats are crowding out the small boats. They aren’t even fishing in the same waters. Small vessels tend to operate in coastal waters. Larger, specialist vessels, such as freezer trawlers, have the equipment and ice class to work 1,500 miles away from the UK, in waters where smaller vessels simply couldn’t operate.

But aren’t the big vessels still being run by companies who are dominating the industry at the expense of owner operators?

Incorrect. Even the large trawlers in the UK tend to be run by small or medium-sized operators. They also tend to run on a communal catch basis, where the whole crew shares in the catch.

When we discuss our territorial waters then speaking from personal experience, I can confirm that the most popular fish that we eat from the chippie is highly unlikely to have been caught within the 12 mile limit. Flatfish, herring and mackerel, yes but cod and haddock no... Are these fish mainly caught in EU waters? I don't think so. The EEZ is way, way outside my area of knowledge but I would guess that the fish we take are not in the EU waters

It is argued that the majority of fish caught in our territorial waters are fish we do not eat in any numbers (I love my sea-bass and have it every Tuesday), I would suggest another red-herring So what, I would say and power to the elbow of our fishing industry. Let our boats catch this source and sell it to the EU? It is called trade and if we do not have enough boats to supply that market, then we need more UK fishing vessels and note it is poo hoo to suggest these boats are manned by exploited underpaid EU workers. Inshore vessels which we are talking about will usually have a very small, local crew

 

[Swotty]

Oddly - China seems to have quite significant access to the EU single market.

Seems to be on quite advantageous terms too - as the EU runs a substantial trade deficit with China.

I would suggest that you correctly described why the majority of Leave voters voted they way they did, but not the majority of UK voters.

As I pointed-out, the Leave vote was won on the back of 700,000 voters (or there abouts), or put differently, if 700,000 Leave voters would have voted Remain instead, there would be no Brexit.

My point was that it's not unreasonable to assume that the number of voters who voted Leave, but would not have done so if they knew that it will end up in a hard-Brexit/no-deal/WTO, is greater than this tiny number of voters that were needed to get the Leave vote over the finishing line.

Of course there's no way to quantify it or prove this, so it will forever remain a rant, but what I ask is that at least you acknowledge that it's feasible that this is what happened.

You're right MJ, it's a rant. And a sour 4-year-old one at that. You disappoint me.

But we live in a democracy. If Remain had won, I'd have been disappointed but shrugged my shoulders and got on with it. Decision made ... move on. Support the UK.

And here we are ... over 4 years on with you still saying that the t*ssers who couldn't be bothered to get out of bed to vote, should all have been counted as Remainers. You are better than that, surely.

But, you see, that is the nub of the problem. If everyone had said, fair cop, that's the democratic decision, let's accept it, move on and get behind the country, we would have had Brexit sorted by now. Instead, "arguments" like yours just feed the anti-democratic folk who just can't accept that they lost. It also heartens the EU to up their game against the UK.

Why, for God's sake, are you still arguing the toss over 4 years after the event? I'm unhappy about lots of things; some I can affect within my own personal ambit but issues like voting are a communal and collective action. First past the post wins. Get over it.

 

[glojo]

I guess now is the time to say adieu.

Thank you all very much indeed for putting up with my rants and raves.

I have thoroughly enjoyed reading these informative posts and how nice to have a political debate where folks are not at each other's throats.

I wish you all a very Merry Christmas and most important.... A virus free New Year

Take care
John

 

[ChipChop]

Sturgeon now wants to extend the Brexit transition period.

 

[markjay]

You cannot blame 4 years of delays on the ‘vote leave’ crew. For the first three years we had a pseudo remainer Theresa May trying to negotiate the softest form of leaving the EU whilst a large faction of MPs did everything they could to try and frustrate and overturn the referendum result.

The vote leave faction were not at the negotiating table. It was May and her abysmal team. Farage isn't even an MP.

This three years of us farting about led the EU to believe that our negotiators were crap and that they might even force us to stay in the EU. I think they probably thought that Boris and his team would be just as inept and pliable.

In fairness to Boris, he has only been negotiating for 1 year and his team appear to have a more robust negotiating strategy. The EU have taken a long time to realise we are actually serious about leaving.

My point is that it is not a failure by vote leave that caused the delay.

So Boris and Gove really did believe that they get a good Brexit deal out of the EU, but then we wasted 3 years with TM, by the end of which the EU hardened their position and the window of opportunity for a good deal closed.

So based on this explanation, Boris and Gove are honest people, I.e. they are neither shysters nor fools.

Possibly... but I still think that the version I provided is equally feasible. Theres no way of proving it one way or the other though.

 

[markjay]

You're right MJ, it's a rant. And a sour 4-year-old one at that. You disappoint me.

But we live in a democracy. If Remain had won, I'd have been disappointed but shrugged my shoulders and got on with it. Decision made ... move on. Support the UK.

And here we are ... over 4 years on with you still saying that the t*ssers who couldn't be bothered to get out of bed to vote, should all have been counted as Remainers. You are better than that, surely.

But, you see, that is the nub of the problem. If everyone had said, fair cop, that's the democratic decision, let's accept it, move on and get behind the country, we would have had Brexit sorted by now. Instead, "arguments" like yours just feed the anti-democratic folk who just can't accept that they lost. It also heartens the EU to up their game against the UK.

Why, for God's sake, are you still arguing the toss over 4 years after the event? I'm unhappy about lots of things; some I can affect within my own personal ambit but issues like voting are a communal and collective action. First past the post wins. Get over it.

Every single post I posted on this thread in the past two weeks was about one very actual and painful issue - the looming prospect of a no-deal Brexit.

We are being groomed into accepting it as a we-did-everything-we-could, it's-them-foreigners-being-unreasonable, played to the tune of the drum of British pride

Your post is part of the problem, it is completely ignoring this issue, trying to silence people like me under the false pretence that we're just moaning about something that happened 4 years ago, nothing more to see here, now shove along..

No matter how many times I posted here "we set-out the rules, played the game, and our side lost. Time to concede defeat and move on" (and I have been saying this since 2016, repeatedly, check this thread), the same thing happened over and over again: whenever I post an inconvenient truth, I am being glossed-over as someone whose a Remoaner with a grudge trying to reverse the referendum result. That's a great way of avoiding embarrassing topics.

It Boris Johnson had signed the trade deal, I wouldn't have posted any of the things I wrote, because, yes, then it would have all been water under the bridge.

You know what? I don't give a hoot about the fishies, and as far as alignment with the EU is concerned, we all knew it was coming just as David Cameron warned us back in 2016. So please don't tell us now that the deal can't be signed before of these.

Just get it done, Boris - sign the bl**dy thing and let's get it over and done with and we can all get-on with our lives.

And for anyone planning on calling me an unpatriotic defeatist, go ahead and do you your worst, but it won't cover-up the colossal f***-up that is a no-deal Brexit after 4 years of bravado and empty gestures of muscle flexing.

 

[C240Sport97]

So just get it done Boris - sign the damp thing and let's move-on with our lives.

the sort of thing Starmer would say .. sign it at any cost

 

[ChipChop]

10 days until we leave the EU and the flow of freight in and out of the UK is being cut off.

 

[markjay]

the sort of thing Starmer would say .. sign it at any cost

Labour are not at all unappealing to me, now that Corbyn and his Momentum gang got the boot.

 

[markjay]

10 days until we leave the EU and the flow of freight in and out of the UK is being cut off.

Wasn't it because of the sudden rise in COVID over here? Sorry wasn't fully following the situation in the news, just got a few bits and pieces.

EDIT - from the BBC:

'There are already huge lorry queues to enter Dover port in Kent because of Christmas stockpiling and Brexit concerns

France suspended all travel links, including freight lorries, with the UK for 48 hours from midnight on Sunday'

So it's the perfect storm of Christmas, Brexit, and COVID...

 

[ChipChop]

So it's the perfect storm of Christmas, Brexit, and COVID...

Only 10 days until the UK's Independence Day. So there are still some things to look forward to.

 

[Dryce]

France suspended all travel links, including freight lorries, with the UK for 48 hours from midnight on Sunday'

Can't help feeling the decision is more conveniently political than about Covid.

 

[PhantomF4]

Can't help feeling the decision is more conveniently political than about Covid.

Are they having a trial run to show how much power and control the EU can bring to bear?

 

[ChipChop]

Are they having a trial run to show how much power and control the EU can bring to bear?

Things never end well for the bully.

 

[Dryce]

Are they having a trial run to show how much power and control the EU can bring to bear?

Well it serves as a warning.

It shows the same sort of thinking that Russia would apply when it comes to demonstrating gas supplies.

Better the true nature of your neighbours is demonstrated early.

However problem for the EU is that this little demonstration of the nature of things will also affect Eire.

 

[PhantomF4]

Well it serves as a warning.

It shows the same sort of thinking that Russia would apply when it comes to demonstrating gas supplies.

Better the true nature of your neighbours is demonstrated early.

However problem for the EU is that this little demonstration of the nature of things will also affect Eire.

How about the things France imports from us, maybe less crucial whilst they’re in lockdown I guess, but demand will return eventually.

 

[markjay]

Why is everyone engaging in a feeding frenzy about the vindictive EU?

A growing number of countries are banning flights from the UK to protect their citizens from the new variant of fast-spreading coronavirus

The emergency of a highly transmissible COVID-19 variant has resulted in a number of countries closing their borders to the UK.

www.businessinsider.com

Several countries took action to isolate themselves from us following the recent COVID figures in the UK. This includes Israel, who is not in the EU, and even Ireland with whom we share an island is said to be considering it. And not all 27 countries in the EU closed their borders to us.

Stop being paranoid, not everything is a conspiracy by the EU, there's nothing to suggest that this is anything more than individual countries making their own decisions.

 

[Dryce]

Several countries took action to isolate themselves from us following the recent COVID figures in the UK. This includes Israel, who is not in the EU, and even Ireland with whom we share an island is said to be considering it. And not all 27 countries in the EU closed their borders to us.

So far in this global crisis the tendency has been to block the movement of people. So that represents what is effectively normal behaviour in these times.

The unusual aspect of what happened to day with France is that the block isn't just on the movement of people but the movement of freight.

 

[Nat]

Sturgeon now wants to extend the Brexit transition period.

Nothing new from little Nicky I guess anything that distracts her plan for IndyRef2 will do her and her party a favour

Katya Adler
@BBCkatyaadler
Influential MEP warns a no deal period is inevitable come 1 Jan if deal not agreed today..because European Parliament couldn’t scrutinise the text in time. BUT EU law says ratification by Eu Parliament is not imperative .. Deal - if agreed - could be applied provisionally #Brexit

This demonstrates how irrelevant the EP are when the Commission can simply bypass them at will. Democracy in the EU at it's best eh? I'd like to see how rejoiners paint the picture on this ....

 

[DSM10000]

Every single post I posted on this thread in the past two weeks was about one very actual and painful issue - the looming prospect of a no-deal Brexit.

We are being groomed into accepting it as a we-did-everything-we-could, it's-them-foreigners-being-unreasonable, played to the tune of the drum of British pride

Your post is part of the problem, it is completely ignoring this issue, trying to silence people like me under the false pretence that we're just moaning about something that happened 4 years ago, nothing more to see here, now shove along..

No matter how many times I posted here "we set-out the rules, played the game, and our side lost. Time to concede defeat and move on" (and I have been saying this since 2016, repeatedly, check this thread), the same thing happened over and over again: whenever I post an inconvenient truth, I am being glossed-over as someone whose a Remoaner with a grudge trying to reverse the referendum result. That's a great way of avoiding embarrassing topics.

It Boris Johnson had signed the trade deal, I wouldn't have posted any of the things I wrote, because, yes, then it would have all been water under the bridge.

You know what? I don't give a hoot about the fishies, and as far as alignment with the EU is concerned, we all knew it was coming just as David Cameron warned us back in 2016. So please don't tell us now that the deal can't be signed before of these.

Just get it done, Boris - sign the bl**dy thing and let's get it over and done with and we can all get-on with our lives.

And for anyone planning on calling me an unpatriotic defeatist, go ahead and do you your worst, but it won't cover-up the colossal f***-up that is a no-deal Brexit after 4 years of bravado and empty gestures of muscle flexing.

Mark.

Your constant theme seems to be to blame the UK Parliament for the failure to achieve a deal.

Are you seriously suggesting that the EU have no part to play in the continuing stalemate?

You want our PM to just sign it and get it over with when that deal may be to the detriment of the UK?

As a secondary question : What was /is your view on the long term aims of the EU?

Do yuu agree that the barely hidden agenda is to centralise economic and therfore political power with the EU itself leaving the member States subordinate to the wishes of the EU Commission etc?