The UK Politics & Brexit Thread

[190]

Your family members have done very well, no doubt due to a combination of skill and hard work, though I suspect that not everyone who followed a similar path was as fortunate.

I do agree that university education can be a wasted investment for some and compounding the problem even further with post graduate studies doesn't guarantee employment as you can end up over qualified for some jobs and not good enough for others. My son found this at each stage and yes he was fortunate that it all came good in the end. It was certainly a worrying time. The PhD process itself is stressful as you can put in years of work and come away without a PhD being awarded. I've head of several instances where the standard of supervision was lacking. My advice to anyone considering higher education is you need to choose your subject and your university with care to stand a chance of getting value for money in terms of lifetime benefits.

 

[Deleted96908]

I do agree that university education can be a wasted investment for some and compounding the problem even further with post graduate studies doesn't guarantee employment as you can end up over qualified for some jobs and not good enough for others. My son found this at each stage and yes he was fortunate that it all came good in the end. It was certainly a worrying time. The PhD process itself is stressful as you can put in years of work and come away without a PhD being awarded. I've head of several instances where the standard of supervision was lacking. My advice to anyone considering higher education is you need to choose your subject and your university with care to stand a chance of getting value for money in terms of lifetime benefits.

I've always thought that it's better to have than to have not, but truth is I'm worried to the point of being ill, about whether pushing my kids towards ever higher qualifications, is the right thing to do. But that's what I've done, right or wrong. Time will tell.

But what I do feel comfortable in believing is that unlike when I was a lad (who through shear luck found himself in some amazing places, doing some amazing things) the opportunities I stumbled across are not typically on offer these days, having been replaced with bought charity gigs. "Want to help out in Africa? Certainly sir/madam - that'll be £5000 to £10,000, depending on where you want to stay and how you want to travel." - and an aggressive jobs market full of, at least in the South East, highly qualified, multi lingual Europeans. So how to compete with that? Well, language is a sore point to most Brits, so it comes down to education and who you know and... luck?

 

[markjay]

What now.......?

Salisbury attack: 'Sheer fury' at Corbyn's response to spy poisoning - Sky News

Russian spy: Jeremy Corbyn aide queries proof of Russian guilt

 

[markjay]

Well, it seems the Corbyn figured-out what Hillary learnt the hard way - that you need the Kremlin behind you if you want to win an election...

 

[Deleted member 65149]

What now.......?

Salisbury attack: 'Sheer fury' at Corbyn's response to spy poisoning - Sky News

Russian spy: Jeremy Corbyn aide queries proof of Russian guilt

After one of his predecessors made a massive (and ongoing) balls up by jumping to false conclusions that resulted in the loss of hundreds of thousands of lives, I can understand his reservations.

Because of the World Cup, I was already concerned about my wife’s plans to travel via Moscow in June/July. I’m even more concerned now.

 

[markjay]

Now Trump joins the chorus:

Video experience headlines - BBC News

 

[Deleted member 37751]

What now.......?

Salisbury attack: 'Sheer fury' at Corbyn's response to spy poisoning - Sky News

Russian spy: Jeremy Corbyn aide queries proof of Russian guilt

Corbyn’s Achilles heel will always be this “if it’s an attack on *The West* it’s probably deserved” slant, and I think it will ultimately be the reason why he will never be elected as PM.

 

[st13phil]

Corbyn’s Achilles heel will always be this “if it’s an attack on *The West* it’s probably deserved” slant, and I think it will ultimately be the reason why he will never be elected as PM.

I think Corbin is increasingly showing himself to be what he's always been as a back bencher: an Islington Agitator who's good at criticising others, but less good at offering anything practically constructive as an alternative. In many ways, he's proving to be the classic "useful idiot" for those who want to gain control, but without showing their face because they know they're unelectable.

At a time when the country needs a strong opposition Labour has instead, once again, managed to create for itself the makings of a self-destructive civil war

 

[grober]

Bearing in mind the mood of the country it seems a singularly ill judged approach to take "politically speaking" even if he was trying to raise a valid point about the origin and motivation behind the attack as a perusal of this article from Reuters reveals. Its important that this possibility is taken into account by the UK government and despite the horror of the attack should not be dismissed out of hand but calibrate its thinking principally because other countries whose support we are counting on* will also be in possession of these same facts outlined below.

Secret trial shows risks of nerve agent theft in post-Soviet chaos:...

* hopefully the submission of samples to the OPCW for analysis will strenghten our international case.
Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons

 

[markjay]

My own personal view is that Theresa May and the Tories are not doing very well right now... if there were elections tomorrow, the only reason Labour would (again) not win is Corbyn.

 

[markjay]

Bearing in mind the mood of the country it seems a singularly ill judged approach to take "politically speaking" even if he was trying to raise a valid point about the origin and motivation behind the attack as a perusal of this article from Reuters reveals. Its important that this possibility is taken into account by the UK government and despite the horror of the attack should not be dismissed out of hand but calibrate its thinking principally because other countries whose support we are counting on* will also be in possession of these same facts outlined below.

Secret trial shows risks of nerve agent theft in post-Soviet chaos:...

* hopefully the submission of samples to the OPCW for analysis will strenghten our international case.
Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons

It was the same story with the BUK missile that shot down MH17 at 30,000 feet, the Russians just kept repeating the same mantra 'where is your proof' while refusing to accept the aerial photography evidence, communications recording, findings in the field and the report of the international investigation.

There's definitely a pattern here, criminal acts that can only be carried-out by - or with the support of - a nation state are taking place, with the finger pointing to Russia, and the dismissive Kremlin's response is 'so what are you going to do about it?'.

Perhaps we should just give up and accept that the Russians won the cold war and they can now do pretty much whatever they want, with no consequences.

 

[markjay]

They also denied using illegal cluster bombs against the rebels in Syria, in spite of these clearly showing fitted under the wings of their SU-25 planes in their own propaganda footage about the campaign in Syria.... or insisting that Assad had no more chemical weapons, while the news channels around the world are showing chemical warfare victims being admitted to Syrian hospitals... etc etc.

They have the mentality of a five years old caught with his hand in the cookie jar and saying 'it wasn't me'.

 

[Alfie]

Austerity has impacted disproportionately on the poorest (who rely more on public services) and far less so on the well-off and yet has failed to meet its stated aims.


You really must stop making things up. Far more people found work during the 1997 - 2007 boom than they have under the current government (as well as at various other times over the years).


Again, no they haven't. The Tories Right-To-Buy legislation prevented councils from re-investing the money raised into new social housing and they have remained ideologically opposed to the type of mass social housing projects built in the mid-20th century because they tend to create whole estates of Labour voters.


Regardless of the outcome, I reserve the right to think that Brexit is a bad idea and to say so. It's called democracy. And contrary to your imaginary "indications", all the credible signs actually indicate that we will take a huge financial and economic hit as a result of the decision to leave. Early harbingers are the £40 BILLION divorce bill that we were forced to agree to and the fact that we had the fastest growing economy in the G7 before the referendum but we now have the slowest.


most will pay a lot more than £6 when they start earning so I don't know where you've dreamed that figure from. And if you are from a well-off family, a £50k debt (before you've even got your first job) won't worry you at all regardless of the repayment terms.


Stop it ! No they're not.


No it's not. Our last PM had his Eton school fees paid for by a father who was a tax avoider by profession (his company provided a tax avoidance service for wealthy clients) and our current PM is married to a man linked to tax avoidance in the leaked Paradise Papers. Yet strangely, Jeremy Corbyn's promise to really clamp down on this sort of things fills you with nothing but vitriol.


What I may or may not have is irrelevant. You need to start to understand the difference between those who pay clever accountants to invent convoluted and complex tax avoidance schemes and who offshore their UK assets and profits and those who open a high street savings account available to all. If this is beyond you, then any further discussion on the issue is futile.


You don't seem to read anything.


I don't wish to align myself to a party or any individual politicians. Again, I thought I'd made that very clear already. And nor am I seeking a Utopian socialist state; I'd settle for a fairer and more egalitarian one.

It is pointless discussing anything with you Scott as you are blindly ignoring the wealth of statistics out there. to start with unemployment is at its lowest for 40 years so how you can claim more people found work in the labour years is ridiculous. Tax revenues are up too massively. your views on Brexit are also skewed by your displike of the tories.

For the sake of clarity my deep concerns are not with the LAbour party as a party but with a few individuals within it that have corrupted the party and are a cancer in our political system. Corbyn, McDonnel and Abbot are totally unfit for high office. It is simply beyond their intellect. It is a great shame that a few thugs have corrupted the party.

We are never going to agree though Scott so lets move on.

 

[grober]

I think we can all agree that the nerve gas weapon originated from Russia. What remains unclear is precisely where the attack originated from and its motivation. As pointed out recently after the fall of the Soviet state much of their security apparatus remains untouched . Like many big organisations they can become a "self fufilling prophesy" existing as a distinct entity both economically and politically with their own vested interests and agenda and no longer just a servant of the state . What remains unclear is just how much autonomy they retain in Putins Russia. So either Putin authorised this on some sort of whim or power trip-- because he could--- or this originated from a powerful political power group in Russia or the former Soviet Block with their own particular agenda----either prospect is equally frightening.
Russian Intelligence Community - Wikipedia

 

[m80]

I am viewing the Salisbury poisoning as the excuse the West has wanted to hold Russia to account for many things.
It is far more complicated than ex spies being used in attempt to deter more Russians giving their secrets to us, the West.

I don't attempt to justify actions here.
The eu has been encroaching on Russian (ex)terrritories for decades. Putin sees it and pushes back.
The eu wishes to expand in that direction, Putin feels threatened.

All three leaders, May, Putin, and Trump win from the Salisbury backlash.
May, so far seen as weak in the face of Brexit negotiations gets to look like a stand up girl willing to challenge the oppressor.
Putin will always look good to the Russian population, who in general appluade strong attitudes and actions toward the West.
Trump who is pretty much cited as a Russian collaborator gets to show he isn't.

I don't remember a time when the West has spoken in the one voice it is doing now. Blimey (aside from Corbyn) even the Lab's are agreeing with the Con's.

If there isn't a gentle way to de escalate this I question what Putin will consider as his response as he is backed further into the corner.

I'm due to go to a wedding 100 miles north of Moscow next month. So far all this is being played down in Russia, in my opinion because Putin doesn't want the distraction that could affect turnout before Sundays election. I believe that Russian people are so far shrugging their shoulders at the UK rhetoric.
Next week might see a different attitude by Putin and then from the Russian population. Having seen and heard of their ability to be very proud nationalists I am deferring my decision to buy the flight.

 

[markjay]

It is interesting to note that one of Gorbachev's key policies at the time was the ending of the cold war and redirecting resources from the military and weapons development to the conomy, focusing on improving the standard of living for ordinary citizens.

The KGB, of which Putin was a young lieutenant-colonel at the time, was not impressed.

And indeed, the Soviet Union collapsed shortly afterwards.

Is Putin now reversing Gorbachev's policies? Did he learn the lesson, that a dictator can only stay in power when there's an enemy at the gate and the people are poor?

 

[grober]

Certainly the latest incident has ratcheted up east west tensions perhaps to the advantage of the hawkish factions on both sides. In dealing with these types of international incident I always feel that the maxim that "nothing is as it seems at first" is a wise approach.

 

[m80]

Gorbachov was viewed as forward thinking by the West, the Russians don't see the same.
He wished to open up to the West and the developments he visioned were at the cost of the people.
Most will remember the Russian state not paying it's infrastructure workers for long periods.
Long queues for bread, potatoes and shoes. Then they would go back the next week for the other shoe (sorry couldn't resist). All these things were bought with tokens, a state rationing due to shortages.

A personal view but, Gorbochovs vision may have been reasonable if he had controlled law and order during his transition to capitalism. Instead it moved too fast and the black market fluorished and becoming a member of one of the many Mafia seemed the best option.
Some years later but Putin gave stability. He corrected many corrupt activitities. Now of course the Mafia's are near gone for him to be the head of the newer and strongest Mafia.
I'm not surprised that he is the hero to many Russians, as yet I haven't met one that won't defend him with vigour, although I've read of a few opposers, most of which look like the ones he's taken power and finance from. T'others give him an accassional yacht.

Again my view but, the actions of Russia with the likes of poisonings and hangings are now secondary to the ambitions of the Western leaders.
Power vacuums are now well acknowledged so aiming to cause a replacement of Putin is only purposeful if the future isn't such a great unknown. Too dangerous.
Mind I suppose the Kremlin might see a more moderate leader could be advantageous??
Any military face off surely would be stupidity, even if his superioir weapon, as declared, is a bluff.

I see as more likely that a unified west would aim to bring him to his knees by more financial sanctions until he towes the line. I believe the West have a strategy and are unlikely to let up before gaining significant results.
Previously Putin has always had the advantage that he can plan well beyond the next election, ours are always mindful of the poles. A unified west may have removed that advantage.
Also I've always believed that he is a better chess player. Does he already have his pieces in place in anticipation?

 

[KillerHERTZ]

Going a bit Off Topic now guys...

 

[Dryce]

I am viewing the Salisbury poisoning as the excuse the West has wanted to hold Russia to account for many things.

You're looking for complications.

If you chuck some canine brown smelly stuff in my garden and then say I'm using it as an excuse to complain to you and hold you to account then that's a bit rich.

It's simple. Rogue state carries out act in UK using nerve agent. UK seriously not happy. Rogue state belligerent. Usual apologists and contrarians speak out for Rogue state - as usual some of them will end up making it all the UK's fault.

It is far more complicated than ex spies being used in attempt to deter more Russians giving their secrets to us, the West.

The use of the chemical weapon sends a message. "It was us". The Russian political response reinforces it with "It was us and we will do what we want when we want".

The poliltical responses available to the UK and any other country affected are relatively limited - so it makes us look weak. But that's not unusual when a democracy ends up dealing with a rogue state.

Personally if I was PM then I'd withdraw diplomats from Moscow and reduce the Russian embassy in London to a minimal presence. I'd also be imposing major visa restrictions on all visitors from Russia regardless. And any financial interactions with Russian institutions would be subject to higher scrutiny. And I'd be recommending that UK citizens do not travel to Russia.