The UK Politics & Brexit Thread

[Yugguy]

Outright denial of Israel's right to exist would likely lose him more votes than it gained.

 

[markjay]

I'm not at all sure that Corbyn is anti-Zionist.

Whilst he condemns the behaviour of the Israeli Government and opposes their programme of illegal settlement building on Palestinian land, I am not aware of any opposition on his behalf to the right of existence of Israel as a nation nor to the idea of a Jewish homeland in the Middle East.

Fair point. And in a nutshell this has also been the UK's official position regarding the conflict for many years now.

As for antisemitism... again, I don't think that Corbyn necessarily holds any such ideology himself, instead his inaction on that front is due to fear of alienating some of his voters.

 

[st13phil]

Fair point. And in a nutshell this has also been the UK's official position regarding the conflict for many years now.

As for antisemitism... again, I don't think that Corbyn necessarily holds any such ideology himself, instead his inaction on that front is due to fear of alienating some of his voters.

“A man is known by the company he keeps”

 

[markjay]

“A man is known by the company he keeps”

Or...:

Farber's Fourth Law: Necessity Is The Mother Of Strange Bedfellows.

 

[Benzowner]

MP gets 'overwhelming support' in Labour anti-Semitism row makes interesting reading, what DO Labour really think?

 

[markjay]

MP gets 'overwhelming support' in Labour anti-Semitism row makes interesting reading, what DO Labour really think?

Ha ha, classic...:

"The second [motion] will ask members to agree the claims of anti-Semitism within the Labour Party and by Mr Corbyn are unfounded and untrue, and part of a plot against the leader and Labour."

This is so Soviet-Union-era....

"It never happened. It's all fabricated. Imperialist provocation by the West to discredit Communism" etc etc.

 

[markjay]

Windrush.... why is it all becoming political? The problem was causes over 50 years by the Home Office under successive governments.... why blame May and Rudd over this? The pair may have a lot to answer for on a variety of Home Office issues, but the Windrush fiasco is surely not of their making?

 

[Dryce]

Windrush.... why is it all becoming political? The problem was causes over 50 years by the Home Office under successive governments.... why blame May and Rudd over this? The pair may have a lot to answer for on a variety of Home Office issues, but the Windrush fiasco is surely not of their making?

The fundamental problem is the lack of a proper register of citizens (and by inference the facility to issue identity cards).

So you have people who enter the country under a given permission many years ago. Somebody puts an ink stamp in their passport - probably with a squiggle added by an immigration official. There is some paper work stored. Along the way they may not formalise their position. But why would they need to? The UK doesn't demand that you carry an identity card - and the forms of ID that we do use - driving licences and utility bills and national insurance numbers don't need citienship.

Around 2000 things gradually started to get a bit bureaucratically toughened up.

Then things ratcheted up some more a few years ago.

So what we are seeing now is the result of about 40 years of UK apathy and meddling and some politics - with an added touch of UK public antagonism to towards the systems and processes that would have naturally led to a citizen registry or database.

Bit late now.

 

[markjay]

...40 years of UK apathy and meddling and some politics...

Theresa May's policy of creating 'hostile environment' for illegal immigrants is not a bad idea in itself, but as a side effect it also brought to the surface a whole range of issues that were created over 40 years of neglect and mismanagement.

The politically correct (no pun intended) thing for her to do would have been to not touch this with a barge pole and simply roll the whole issue into the lap of the next Home Secretary, just as her predecessors before her did.

This may have been a political miscalculation on her behalf at the time - she is said to feel very strongly on immigration, so perhaps this is a case where ideology came before practicality - but either way, as said - this mess is not of her making...

One such sad case was highlighted in the press recently:

Gran's heartbreak as she's banned from UK after living here for 59 years

The Lady's original 1960 Jamaican passport with the 'Indefinite leave to remain' stamp was stolen in 2006, and so when she left to Jamaica to attend her sister's funeral in 2010, she was unable to return to the UK because her new Jamaican passport requires her to get a visa in order to come here. and has been stranded in Jamaica for the past 8 years. So yes this is a downright mess..... but sadly, hardly a new one. Seems that over the past 60 years no one at the Home Office thought that it might be a good idea to encourage all these people to become British citizens, or otherwise settle their status.

 

[Dryce]

The Lady's original 1960 Jamaican passport with the 'Indefinite leave to remain' stamp was stolen in 2006, and so when she left to Jamaica to attend her sister's funeral in 2010, she was unable to return to the UK because her new Jamaican passport requires her to get a visa in order to come here. and has been stranded in Jamaica for the past 8 years. So yes this is a downright mess..... but sadly, hardly a new one.

I'm guessing the lady affected had the old ink stamp in her old passport. She probably had her Jamaican passport renewed several times. On each renewal the immigration officer would have simply put a new stamp in her new passport to replace her old one. As long as that was done correctly then no hassles.

She shouldn't have left without having her passport sorted.

But ... back in the early 2000s the procedure changed. You needed to apply for a new official embossed paper sticker to be put in a new passport. The upshot is that many people don't renew that but carry the old cancelled passport with the old ink stamp or the embossed paper thing. It saves money not getting the proper update. But it's another thing to get lost or stolen.

At a guess -if she had the new (expensive) certificate in the stolen passport then she would have been reasonably OK because they would have proper records of its issue.

Seems that over the past 60 years no one at the Home Office thought that it might be a good idea to encourage all these people to become British citizens, or otherwise settle their status.

They may not want to have become British citizens. There are lots of people born in the UK but maintain non-UK citizenship and some don't have UK passports.

As a non-UK national - particularly one from a commonwealth country - there has been very little need to apply for UK nationality - you're not really disadvantaged in terms of your life here. (Travel outside the UK is a different issue)

If the HO had suddenly 'encouraged' people to become UK citizens then there would have been an outcry of a different kind.

 

[Benzowner]

I wonder if it's not a smoke screen to cover the Jewish problems the Labour has

 

[grober]

Amber Rudd resigns as home secretary

 

[Dryce]

Amber Rudd resigns as home secretary

So the conservative party might ponder that their stated aim was to reduice immigration. it would seem logical that to make the system fair that you deal withose who enter illegally. And yet on dealing with that aspect it looks like the media and the political establishment don't actually like it officially spoken about as to how that is done.

The real problem with the 'Windrush' thing is that legal immigrants were not dealt with properly.

Ms Rudd has actually been finally ditched on a technicality involving dealling with those who entered illegally.

And the underlying problem - which is about documentation and process and common sense is left languishing of on the periphery somewhere.

 

[markjay]

So the great British public expects our government to make an omelette without breaking any eggs... great.

 

[Dryce]

So the great British public expects our government to make an omelette without breaking any eggs... great.

I'm not sure what the 'great British public' expects.

But at least some of the time it's not what the political and media establishment very vocally and righteously present (or assume) that it expects.

 

[Steveml63]

I'm not sure what the 'great British public' expects.

But at least some of the time it's not what the political and media establishment very vocally and righteously present (or assume) that it expects.

Hi,
I think the Great British public expects its senior politicians to actually have a real grasp of the departments that they head up and to brief themselves properly before going in front of select committees and making total fools of themselves!
Honesty, competence and integrity are the three key attributes that are required by these people - all woefully lacking in Amber Rudd (IMHO)
Cheers
Steve

 

[shyam27]

You have the right to choose...

.... Bullshit. You never had a choice. It's all controlled and you lot are a bunch of ducks sitting on a fence.

Nothing is what it seems.

Jeremy Corbyn criticises Israel a little bit and suddenly he's a racist, anti-Semite, etc etc. Are we no longer allowed to criticise anybody? Also, I'd like to clarify that secularly speaking, criticising Isreal is not criticising the Jewish Faith, it is criticising Zionism, which is a whole different movement all together. In fact, many Jewish people themselves protest against Zionism.

In 2015, a total figure of $138 BILLION Dollars was given to Israel in foreign aid from the U.S. The U.S are themselves in trillions of pounds in debt, how can they then justify this at all?

This money was allocated in respect of the Israel/Palestinian conflict. Rather than use this money to enforce co-existence with Palestine, Israel continue to increase their nuclear war head capacity and illegally occupy lands of Palestine.

So lets rewind back to how this all started in the first place..

Can you remember(or have read about) when Nazi Germany(Axis) were soooo close to winning the world war against the 'Allies', United Kingdom? Churchill himself said that Hitler had the war won in May 1941- after the fall of Crete and the Germans capturing the three airfields there. And then, as if magically, out of nowhere, friends of Germany, United States, flew in saved our asses? But at what cost?

It seems in 1940, United Kingdom sign off the Balfour Declaration, a declaration stating that,

'His Majesty's government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.'.

Lets hear what successful Jewish businessman, Benjamin Freedman, enlightens on the situation. Lets remember now, none of us really lived during this time and can not hand on heart declare what happened. This man, however, did.

''Here in the United States, the Zionists and their co-religionists have complete control of our government. For many reasons, too many and too complex to go into here at this time, the Zionists and their co-religionists rule these United States as though they were the absolute monarchs of this country. Now you may say that is a very broad statement, but let me show you what happened while we were all asleep.''

Read whole statement here: Benjamin Freedman Speaks: A Jewish Defector Warns America, don't believe he said it? Live recording online if you search..

I am not a racist. I am not an Anti-Semite. I am PRO HUMANITY!

 

[Dryce]

before going in front of select committees and making total fools of themselves!

I think my concern is that it seems the system is setup such that it actually either looks to do this or traps them into this.

Little trip wires are set.

So in this case the minister is put on the ropes by the situation involving the paperwork and status of people who entered the UK legally to stay some 50 years ago - which has been a problemgovernmen festering. But the actual KO which causes the minister to resign is a technical one based upon her denial of something different.

Regardless of what one might think (or not think) about the now ex-minister the actual resignation is as much down to politics and her performance in public and not her actual performance and in office. So had it been anybody else in that position i think they would have been caught in the same way - with the only differentiator being their support by colleagues or their personal presentation in the media.

So we - the public - say our politicians are all fools. Well if they are and we vote for them then what does that make us? Or if we turn the government into a stylised reality show with the media circus to support it and we have symbolic fights and departures - what does that make us?

 

[Dryce]

Y
Can you remember(or have read about) when Nazi Germany(Axis) were soooo close to winning the world war against the 'Allies', United Kingdom? Churchill himself said that Hitler had the war won in May 1941- after the fall of Crete and the Germans capturing the three airfields there. And then, as if magically, out of nowhere, friends of Germany, United States, flew in saved our asses? But at what cost?

I'd be interested to see exactly how you got to this simplistic interpretation.

My recollection is that Churchill's view after the invasion of Crete was rather different. And the US was involved with Lend Lease prior to that.

 

[shyam27]

I'd be interested to see exactly how you got to this simplistic interpretation.

My recollection is that Churchill's view after the invasion of Crete was rather different. And the US was involved with Lend Lease prior to that.

The Battle of Maleme, Crete

https://winstonchurchill.org/publications/finest-hour/finest-hour-161/the-evacuation-from-crete/

No direct quote from myself of Churchill, just to say that we lost in Crete and effectively when Germany gained upper hand in the war. We almost lost was the point I was trying to bring across.. I kept it simple as I wanted to elaborate on a different point, rather than what is common knowledge that Germany had pretty much won the war until U.S stepped in.