The UK Politics & Brexit Thread

[Dryce]

Mate, stop sucking up to Zionism. Just because Theresa May says we should be zionists don't mean that we should be zionists. I have just touched upon the kind of that grip Zionism has on our western political structure since WW1.

I can't help feeling that there will be a kindly and benevolent moderator along shortly to chuck a warning in the general direction of this thread.

 

[shyam27]

Most illuminating, except.... this anti-Israel rant of yours has absolutely nothing to to do with this thread.
You are entitled to your views, of course, but airing them here will see this thread closed... so please stop.

I can't help feeling that there will be a kindly and benevolent moderator along shortly to chuck a warning in the general direction of this thread.

I'm sorry if I miss understood the title of the thread but isn't the decision on where UK tax payers money is spent got anything to do with UK Politics?

Afghanistan war has cost Britain more than £37bn, new book claims

Or do we not pay taxes here?

 

[Dryce]

I'm sorry if I miss understood the title of the thread but isn't the decision on where UK tax payers money is spent got anything to do with UK Politics?

You may see your posts as being within that scope - but you have stretched it and I think you would quite like to advocate something broader ...... so bear in mind that his is not a poiltical site but a MB interest and this thread is tolerated by the esteemed moderators here only if it stays civil and on topic.

(And I also suspect that the digression this afternoon into WW2 hasn't escaped their patient and wise attention either.)

 

[brucemillar]

I don’t comment in this thread too often. But...... is it only me who’s telly nearly exploded with irony fall out when (I still can’t really believe it). Diane Abbot stood up and insisted that Amber Rudd should resign over “getting things wrong” and even managed to look indignant as she pouted about “she should have known”.

This is possibly the biggest Pot calling Kettle moment I have seen in some years. Worthy of some comedy gold award.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[markjay]

I don’t comment in this thread too often. But...... is it only me who’s telly nearly exploded with irony fall out when (I still can’t really believe it). Diane Abbot stood up and insisted that Amber Rudd should resign over “getting things wrong” and even managed to look indignant as she pouted about “she should have known”.

This is possibly the biggest Pot calling Kettle moment I have seen in some years. Worthy of some comedy gold award.


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It is worth noting that the MP for Hackney North and Stoke Newington since 1987, in spite of being of Jamaican descent herself, did absolutely nothing during her 30 years in office to help the Windrush generation by trying to untangle the mess that they were in and help them obtain British citizenship or otherwise settle their immigration status, even though no doubt many of them live in her own constituency. And now she has the audacity to stand at the forefront and shout abuse at May and Rudd, totally ignoring her oen incompetence and lack of action over three decades.

And then there's this...:

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Words fail me.

 

[AMGeed]

^ Ah yes, good old Diane Abbott. The dumbest human to ever become an MP.

 

[markjay]

...so how's everyone voting tomorrow?

 

[artyman]

None of the above ! It is something when the candidates and their party's policies do not represent my wishes. Come back Mr Farage YOUR country needs you.

 

[MercedesDriver]

...so how's everyone voting tomorrow?

I hope they still got pencils, if not I’ll bring mine.

 

[shyam27]

 

[AMGeed]

^ Lol......someone is backing the wrong horse.

 

[Dryce]

^ Lol......someone is backing the wrong horse.

Is there a right horse?

The cartoon shows the problem - though perhaps not as the poster intends.

1. Labour did bankrupt the country in 1976. The disaster that was the late 70s has been masked to some extent by shifting the blame to Thatcherism. The debt has 'tripled' but the cause is in part Gordon Brown holding on to his predecessor governments spending controls in the early 2000s and then over confidently lossening controls just at the wrong time and leaving a legacy of debt. Moreover that debt increase belies the austerity argument.
2. A scandal that has roots and growth that sprad back over the governments of both parties over several decades.
3. Well claiming one party suspends coincilllors dodgy views rather highlights that the other party seemed to be - at best - institutionally complacent on such matters.
4. Back to the horse problem.

I think over the last five decades is that our politicians have been a mix of earnest and deluded and subject to the law of unintenderd consequences. Labour tends to do tactical economic damage. Conservatives tend to do stuff that lays traps a decade or two ahead.

Both do stuff that cannot simply be undone. As an example we have two expensive aircraft carriers - started by one government and allegedly uncancellable by the next. Or we have shift in housing ownership that was kicked off in the 80s and has significant and growing ramifications in this decade. And at the same time both fail to directly address long standing festering issues - so the separation of NI and PAYE - which has knock-on for other policy affecting small businesses and contractors.

We could do worse. A lot worse. There's a general election taking place in Malaysia at the moment with participants and a governing party that make our dodgiest politicians look benign and and the expenses scandal utterly insignificant.

 

[markjay]

shyam27's cartoon does have a point though.... new age politics means that too many people no longer vote for the party they want, instead they vote against the party they don't want.

And much of the political debate seems to evolve around how bad the other side is, as opposed to how good 'we' are.

Both sides pointing fingers at each other and claiming that the other party are racists... etc.

I posted my views on the Windrush generation scandal... it evolved under a total of 18 years of Labour government and 26 years of Tory government (5 of which with the Lib-Dems), none of the parties when in power did anything to help the immigrants to settle their status or naturalise in the UK, and now they are bickering over whose fault it is.

So I think the cartoon does have a point.

 

[Dryce]

new age politics means that too many people no longer vote for the party they want, instead they vote against the party they don't want.

Or what teh parties actualy offer up doesn't actually appeal.

So in Scotland - you want independence - go with the SNP. But what if you don't like the SNP's economics. Ooops. No alternative.

So in the UK you wanted Brexit - go with .... well actually the mainstream parties were all pretty pro-EU. So along comes UKIP - which I suspect most f its voters didn't want except to register a vote on the issue of the EU that the mainsteam parties wouldn't actually offer. And it leveraged the EUref as eth establishment caved to try and put the issue to bed.

So here's a 'new age' question. Do you think the EUref would have happened if the government of the day had though the result would go the way it did?

And I think the answer to that question is scary. Because I suspect that the answer to that is NO.

So think on that. Because if I'm right on that then in our enlightened new age politics democracy isn't about what the public really want - it's about what limited choices - even on the really big issues - that the entrenched political establishment deigns to grant them.

 

[Scott_F]

I posted my views on the Windrush generation scandal... it evolved under a total of 18 years of Labour government and 26 years of Tory government (5 of which with the Lib-Dems), none of the parties when in power did anything to help the immigrants to settle their status or naturalise in the UK, and now they are bickering over whose fault it is.

The problem of lack of documentation and the ambiguous status of some Commonwealth immigrants was well known for decades and successive governments were largely content to leave people be since they didn't want to create problems. The whole thing only turned into the "Windrush Scandal" when the Home Office was compelled to meet the current Government's removal targets for illegal immigrants and these people were subject of undue focus as they were seen as easy wins.

 

[Scott_F]

So here's a 'new age' question. Do you think the EUref would have happened if the government of the day had though the result would go the way it did?

And I think the answer to that question is scary. Because I suspect that the answer to that is NO.

So think on that. Because if I'm right on that then in our enlightened new age politics democracy isn't about what the public really want - it's about what limited choices - even on the really big issues - that the entrenched political establishment deigns to grant them.

It isn't a "new age" question; the EU referendum was simply a case of old-fashioned political manoeuvring and was never about what the public want.

Cameron had successfully ensured Lib Dem support for his coalition via a referendum on PR and then pulled the rug from under the SNP (but only just) with an independence referendum. With only a narrow parliamentary majority and worried by the further loss of core Tory voters over the issue of our EU membership, he decided to try the trick for a third time and thought he could outflank UKIP with yet another referendum.

It proved to be a referendum too far and ended both his premiership and his political career literally overnight. It was the biggest political miscalculation of modern times and had he foreseen the result then of course the referendum would never have happened regardless of what the public may or may not want.

 

[Yugguy]

In the recent local elections I voted for the liberal candidate as he's the only one who actually lives in the ward.

 

[grober]

Its true that there was huge industrial unrest in the 70

Or what teh parties actualy offer up doesn't actually appeal.

So in Scotland - you want independence - go with the SNP. But what if you don't like the SNP's economics. Ooops. No alternative.

So in the UK you wanted Brexit - go with .... well actually the mainstream parties were all pretty pro-EU. So along comes UKIP - which I suspect most f its voters didn't want except to register a vote on the issue of the EU that the mainsteam parties wouldn't actually offer. And it leveraged the EUref as eth establishment caved to try and put the issue to bed.

So here's a 'new age' question. Do you think the EUref would have happened if the government of the day had though the result would go the way it did?

And I think the answer to that question is scary. Because I suspect that the answer to that is NO.

So think on that. Because if I'm right on that then in our enlightened new age politics democracy isn't about what the public really want - it's about what limited choices - even on the really big issues - that the entrenched political establishment deigns to grant them.

Interestingly the British voters had a distinct opportunity to change that in 2011 by referendum but voted overwhelmingly 68/32% against any change on a 42% turnout.
How the established political parties campaigned on the issue is interesting if somewhat predictable. United Kingdom Alternative Vote referendum, 2011 - Wikipedia
The change in any electoral system might have on any result might be gleaned from any difference in the representational makeup of said SNP in the Scottish assembly [ AV voting system] and Scotlands Westminster MP's [ First past the post] Same voting pool different result ?????

 

[shyam27]

Is there a right horse?

The cartoon shows the problem - though perhaps not as the poster intends.

1. Labour did bankrupt the country in 1976. The disaster that was the late 70s has been masked to some extent by shifting the blame to Thatcherism. The debt has 'tripled' but the cause is in part Gordon Brown holding on to his predecessor governments spending controls in the early 2000s and then over confidently lossening controls just at the wrong time and leaving a legacy of debt. Moreover that debt increase belies the austerity argument.
2. A scandal that has roots and growth that sprad back over the governments of both parties over several decades.
3. Well claiming one party suspends coincilllors dodgy views rather highlights that the other party seemed to be - at best - institutionally complacent on such matters.
4. Back to the horse problem.

I think over the last five decades is that our politicians have been a mix of earnest and deluded and subject to the law of unintenderd consequences. Labour tends to do tactical economic damage. Conservatives tend to do stuff that lays traps a decade or two ahead.

Both do stuff that cannot simply be undone. As an example we have two expensive aircraft carriers - started by one government and allegedly uncancellable by the next. Or we have shift in housing ownership that was kicked off in the 80s and has significant and growing ramifications in this decade. And at the same time both fail to directly address long standing festering issues - so the separation of NI and PAYE - which has knock-on for other policy affecting small businesses and contractors.

We could do worse. A lot worse. There's a general election taking place in Malaysia at the moment with participants and a governing party that make our dodgiest politicians look benign and and the expenses scandal utterly insignificant.

shyam27's cartoon does have a point though.... new age politics means that too many people no longer vote for the party they want, instead they vote against the party they don't want.

And much of the political debate seems to evolve around how bad the other side is, as opposed to how good 'we' are.

Both sides pointing fingers at each other and claiming that the other party are racists... etc.

I posted my views on the Windrush generation scandal... it evolved under a total of 18 years of Labour government and 26 years of Tory government (5 of which with the Lib-Dems), none of the parties when in power did anything to help the immigrants to settle their status or naturalise in the UK, and now they are bickering over whose fault it is.

So I think the cartoon does have a point.

I'm glad we can see eye to eye in some aspects of UK politics gentlemen.

I will add an disclaimer, it's not my creation, something I took from one of the social media platforms.

I don't agree that any of the parties being racist tbh, I don't think any of them are except the small episode we had with BNP. My family were allowed to settle here in the 70's when being kicked out of Uganda by the Idi Amin regime. They experienced a bit of 'paki bashing', but that was more to do with the people than the government.

Understandably, parties will see an issue with the level of migration and lack of control/assessment and it's hard for any party to approach the problem without sounding racist. The problem with immigration is that many individuals were finding ways to stay permanently in the UK without even being able to speak English or being able to offer any skills to our society. This was largely due to the Free Movement polices introduced early 2000's hunched by a massive under prediction of individuals entering the country, by a factor of 10!

So yeah, we can establish that there is a problem with immigration and it needs to be controlled in numbers and the people entering the country need to speak a decent level of English to be able to integrate and offer skills to help our economy grow. However there's a right and wrong way to approach things. It's no good accusing immigrants of going out and taking all our jobs, taking all our places to live and living off benefits. Some immigrants do live off benefits but so do many more English people. When I was doing factory work whilst at university (you don't get to own a 280ce at my age with no hard work lol) during summer holidays, I worked with many immigrants. They were amongst the hardest working people I've ever worked with. They are much more hungry and offer much more productivity then what has now become a lazy English population, you can't take that away from them. Whilst many live on little pay, they are still content and able to live good quality lives without splashing out on things they can't afford (unlike us brits). We can actually learn some things of these guys! As well as this, we must also raise our standards and help the youth of this country become more motivated and understand that hard work pays off. No good spoiling them and wrapping them up in a cotton wool ball, it's beyond a joke now.

Also, we should remember that many of the circumstances faced by people in places of conflict, are suffering through a combination of our efforts(certainly not wholly) which go right back to colonialism to much recent events, such as participating in wars that we have no real involvement in. How did the Indians end up in Uganda? Because when the British Empire took over India, they 'employed' many Indians down to Africa to build the great national railway. When Indians started monopolising the economies, the dictators had enough and kicked us out. And how about the innocent families caught in the crossfire between our soldiers, american soldiers, local soldiers, rebels, Isis, etc, it's through no fault of their own and they have every right to seek refuge. I have much darker views on this which I touched upon before in this thread, there's no coincidence in the correlation between fuel prices and war. However that's a different topic all together..

 

[Scott_F]

Understandably, parties will see an issue with the level of migration and lack of control/assessment and it's hard for any party to approach the problem without sounding racist. The problem with immigration is that many individuals were finding ways to stay permanently in the UK without even being able to speak English or being able to offer any skills to our society. This was largely due to the Free Movement polices introduced early 2000's hunched by a massive under prediction of individuals entering the country, by a factor of 10!.

Free movement of labour only applies to workers from EU countries. People who enter this country illegally or who are visa over-stayers have nothing to do with the EU or free movement of labour and there are many of them.

As well as this, we must also raise our standards and help the youth of this country become more motivated and understand that hard work pays off. No good spoiling them and wrapping them up in a cotton wool ball, it's beyond a joke now.

Are we really "wrapping people up in cotton wool" ? It is becoming harder to convince young people that hard work pays off when they leave college with a low-calibre degree and a £50k debt, have to do non-graduate jobs and have no prospect of ever buying their own home on the wages they earn.

When Indians started monopolising the economies, the dictators had enough and kicked us out.

Where did this happen other than Uganda ?