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Free movement of labour only applies to workers from EU countries. People who enter this country illegally or who are visa over-stayers have nothing to do with the EU or free movement of labour and there are many of them.

Snap, I misunderstood the policy completely till now then. haha This would still benefit many eastern Europeans that seek immigration.


Are we really "wrapping people up in cotton wool" ? It is becoming harder to convince young people that hard work pays off when they leave college with a low-calibre degree and a £50k debt, have to do non-graduate jobs and have no prospect of ever buying their own home on the wages they earn.

Yeah, absolutely agree. It's becoming more and more difficult for younger generation for these reasons exactly. Well I just feel as though many young people are not disciplined as before. I have seen some disgusting things where kids talk to their parents like they are slaves. This amongst other things.

Where did this happen other than Uganda ?

In Kenya and Tanzania also. Less so however. They were not kicked out as such, but experienced a lot of discrimination.
 
Because if I'm right on that then in our enlightened new age politics democracy isn't about what the public really want - it's about what limited choices - even on the really big issues - that the entrenched political establishment deigns to grant them.
Varoufakis makes exactly that point in "Adults in the Room": the "Deep Establishment" as he terms them decide what's on offer to the electorate, and the electorate are only offered things that it will support the Deep Establishment's aims in some way or another.
 
Snap, I misunderstood the policy completely till now then. haha This would still benefit many eastern Europeans that seek immigration.

It's not difficult to misunderstand.

There's been a huge influx of non-EU citizens over the last 25 years as well. The EU free movement tends to have been the focus of discussion. I don't think the general public or media really understand the various bureacratic routes (or otherwise) by which people get into the UK to live and work.

My guess is that the UK population is rather higher than official figures tend to state.
 
It's not difficult to misunderstand.

There's been a huge influx of non-EU citizens over the last 25 years as well. The EU free movement tends to have been the focus of discussion. I don't think the general public or media really understand the various bureacratic routes (or otherwise) by which people get into the UK to live and work.

My guess is that the UK population is rather higher than official figures tend to state.

We only hear of illegal immigrants when we read about the 60 stowaways who met their fate in very traggic circumstances in the back of a lorry, or when we read in the Daily Mail about a dozen or so who were abandoned at a roundabout in Kent.

But I suspect the the actual number of people who are crossing the channel illegally into the UK every day is probably in the dozens if not hundreds.

Then there are those who arrive with fake EU passports, and those who enter with a tourist or student visa and then never leave.

But the Windrush scandal is a Red Herring... it is an unforeseen side effect of the 'hostile environment' policy, that should have been picked-up by the Home Office and dealt with much earlier.

Now here's the dilemma.... and the real issue with the 'hostile environment' policy.

We do not have compulsary ID cards in the UK. It is all too easy to show-up and register at your local NHS surgery, or NHS Dentist, or even register for benefits (as the Windrush generation did for decades). Then rent a flat for cash, and work for someone who asks no questions. There may be a few hurdles, but nothing that anyone resourceful enough to make their way across two continents and arrive in the UK won't be able to manage.

In fact, a few years back, before Poland enetred the EU, I seem to remember a scandal were Polish nationals (who were not allowed to work in the UK at the time) managed to obtain UK NI cards and work as security guards at the Home Office (through a contractor).......

So how do we enforce our immigration laws?

The real issue with the 'hostile environment' policy is that it relies on the great British public for enforcement. The onus is on employers, landlords, and surgery managers to police our immigration policies. This is the meaning of 'hostile environment' - the environment is us.

Either way - the combination of no IDs and no enforcement means that there's not much that can realistically be done regarding illegal immigration at current.... and as for the 'hostile environment', it no longer matters, because the Windrush scandal put it to bed anyway.
 
Varoufakis makes exactly that point in "Adults in the Room": the "Deep Establishment" as he terms them decide what's on offer to the electorate, and the electorate are only offered things that it will support the Deep Establishment's aims in some way or another.

Thanks for the book mention. Just found it on Audible. Varoufakis seems an exceptionally smart guy - with interests that include Game Theory. Fascinating.
 
Then there are those who arrive with fake EU passports
I fancy that there is possibly another group (size of which I have no idea) who enter the UK via another EU country in which they have gained a passport, perhaps with less stringent background checks.

I was in a restaurant in Milan 4 or 5 years ago, it was a "curry house" and I was surprised to see it, because northern Italians tend not to go for particularly spicy foods and they have no particular colonial link with the sub-continent in the way that the UK does, or the way that France does with Vietnam, etc.

I struck up a conversation with someone who appeared to be the owner (who spoke good English) and commented that I was surprised to find the restaurant there and wondered why they had picked Milan and not somewhere in the UK to open up. "Oh," came the reply, "we'll all be in the UK in a couple of years". So why start in Italy, I asked, innocently. At this point the conversation took on a distinctly hostile tone before being brought to an abrupt halt. The inference I drew was that Italy was acting for them as a "flag of convenience" when direct entry to the UK wasn't possible, which raises a multitude of questions if it truly was the case.
 
I fancy that there is possibly another group (size of which I have no idea) who enter the UK via another EU country in which they have gained a passport, perhaps with less stringent background checks.

I was in a restaurant in Milan 4 or 5 years ago, it was a "curry house" and I was surprised to see it, because northern Italians tend not to go for particularly spicy foods and they have no particular colonial link with the sub-continent in the way that the UK does, or the way that France does with Vietnam, etc.

I struck up a conversation with someone who appeared to be the owner (who spoke good English) and commented that I was surprised to find the restaurant there and wondered why they had picked Milan and not somewhere in the UK to open up. "Oh," came the reply, "we'll all be in the UK in a couple of years". So why start in Italy, I asked, innocently. At this point the conversation took on a distinctly hostile tone before being brought to an abrupt halt. The inference I drew was that Italy was acting for them as a "flag of convenience" when direct entry to the UK wasn't possible, which raises a multitude of questions if it truly was the case.
The food in my local curry house is inconsistent.

I have noticed over time that this inconsistency coincides with them being raided by immigration officials.

The 'illegals' are generally better cooks, when they get deported the food quality is poorer.
 
Thanks for the book mention. Just found it on Audible. Varoufakis seems an exceptionally smart guy - with interests that include Game Theory. Fascinating.
I found the book fascinating, enlightening, and depressing.

Varoufakis clearly has an agenda of his own and a large ego, but I have no reason to disbelieve his account of the duplicity of many in the troika, the ineffectiveness of others and their collective willingness to cripple Greece in order to save German and French banks and their own political skins.
 
Varoufakis clearly has an agenda of his own and a large ego

He reminds me of some of the smart academics I have met who are also politicised. Interesting to talk to - and able to articulate very well - but not always on as solid ground as they believe or would have you believe.

I think also the Greeks have been a bit self-righteous about the way they were treated by the EU. Bit like a spoilt relative squandering their inheritance and expecting the rest of the family to bail them out with little intention of sorting themselves out. How did Greece actually expect the big hitters in the Eurozone to react to their 'needs'.

(That said - Greece arguably should never have been let into the EU let alone incorporated into the Eurozone).
 
I fancy that there is possibly another group (size of which I have no idea) who enter the UK via another EU country in which they have gained a passport, perhaps with less stringent background checks.

Or via a EU country that unilaterally opens its borders ......

It's not as if the UK isn't part of this fudge either. We hand out passports to people too - do other EU countries have a say in that?
 
I think also the Greeks have been a bit self-righteous about the way they were treated by the EU.
I tend to agree, but it’s hard to see how loaning them more money on condition that it was used to repay German and French banks that had (arguably foolishly) lent to Greece to such an extent that a Greek default would have bankrupted the entire German and French banking systems actually helped anyone - except the German and French banks.

On the subject of the Euro, Greece’s joining was supported by the French for their own political ends, who encouraged everyone else not to look too hard at Greece’s real financial position. My personal view is that the Euro is an economically unworkable political vanity project, but that’s another discussion entirely.



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Or via a EU country that unilaterally opens its borders ......

It's not as if the UK isn't part of this fudge either. We hand out passports to people too - do other EU countries have a say in that?
And therein lies the structural conflict between Nation States and supra-national entities such as the EU.
 
Hague's 'legalise cannabis' call rejected
Lord Hagues recent less than helpfull attempt to address the "cannabis question". Supposedly prompted by the recent Billy Caldwell case which has prompted requests for widening the forms of cannabis which can be usefully and legally prescribed for theraputic purposes. He choses to up the legislation stakes by extrapolating from what would appear to be reasonably sensible change to one where cannabis is legalised for recreational use without prescription - a much more contentious issue. Naivety or deliberate? :confused:
 
Naivety or deliberate? :confused:
Like it or not, he makes a totally valid point that there’s no point in sitting, Canute-like, and ordering the tide to recede.

The problem with recreational drug use is that there is significant demand for the “product” but the only suppliers are those willing to operate outside the law. This drives violence, thefts and other very antisocial activities.

I really do think that legalising some recreational substances is the best way forward.


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Like it or not, he makes a totally valid point that there’s no point in sitting, Canute-like, and ordering the tide to recede.

The problem with recreational drug use is that there is significant demand for the “product” but the only suppliers are those willing to operate outside the law. This drives violence, thefts and other very antisocial activities.

I really do think that legalising some recreational substances is the best way forward.


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The problem at the moment is that, although readily available illicitly, the quality is untested and unreliable.

I'm not convinced that I'd want to ingest anything that might have been brought into the country up someone's bum either.
 
I am not against his suggestion but his timing. By making some form of loose legislative connection between recreational and medicinal use he ran the risk of raising opposition to the entirely sensible relaxation of regulation on the theraputic use of cannabinoids. I quite like Hague so I was slightly surprised at his political instincts on this occasion that's all. Widespread recreational use has I would suggest a much wider significance not least of which might be the driving of motor vehicles while " under the influence" :dk:
 
The problem at the moment is that, although readily available illicitly, the quality is untested and unreliable.

I'm not convinced that I'd want to ingest anything that might have been brought into the country up someone's bum either.
All of which should be resolvable if it is legitimised.

It’s exactly the same set of problems that Prohibition caused in the US: dubious and indeterminate product quality and a great opportunity for organised crime to prosper.


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Widespread recreational use has I would suggest a much wider significance not least of which might be the driving of motor vehicles while " under the influence" :dk:
Alcohol is a widely used (and abused) recreational drug yet we - for the most part - are happy to permit the populace to use it, and indeed choose to generate taxation revenue from that use. Where’s the difference?




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