The UK Politics & Brexit Thread

[Scott_F]

A simple trawl of Facebook and you'll find lots of "leavers are thick" posts from remainers. You'll also find lots of posts of the other persuasion too.

You can find just about anything in the ramblings on Facewipe, Tw@tter and the like but I was talking about something more credible.

 

[Yugguy]

My conclusion is that there are thick people on either side of the Brexit debate, and by putting the matter to a referendum we gave the thick people a vote.

]

Drawback of universal franchise. Each person's vote has the same weight.

 

[Yugguy]

You can find just about anything in the ramblings on Facewipe, Tw@tter and the like but I was talking about something more credible.

I'm sure you can google "leavers are thick" just as well as I can.

PROJECT SNEER: Luvvies Say Leavers are 'Thick Idiots' -

 

[Dryce]

Direct democracy just does not work with a population of 70m.

If the result of the referendum had been a firm 60:40 or 70:30 to remain then would you hold this view?

 

[Scott_F]

I'm sure you can google "leavers are thick" just as well as I can.

PROJECT SNEER: Luvvies Say Leavers are 'Thick Idiots' -

You have posted a link to Guido Fawkes, a pro-Brexit hard right-winger.

I said credible.

 

[markjay]

If the result of the referendum had been a firm 60:40 or 70:30 to remain then would you hold this view?

I don't know what the Remain campaigners would do.

But I can tell you that personally I would have still been very unhappy with the fact that a referendum was held in the first place.

The entire principle of representative democracy is that we choose the people that will lead and govern us.

We choose them based on their ideology, ability, skills, and integrity.

Then we let them get on with the job.

But that is clearly NOT how the Brexit issue was handled.

 

[markjay]

]

Drawback of universal franchise. Each person's vote has the same weight.

The same vote in choosing our governmnet, absolutely yes.

But not 'the same vote' on each and every matter.

That's the difference betwen a representative democracy and direct democracy.

The latter only works in small groups.

 

[Yugguy]

You have posted a link to Guido Fawkes, a pro-Brexit hard right-winger.

I said credible.

Obtuse for the sake of it now. I picked one single, random link from the google results.

This attitude was prevelant during the runup to the referendum and is still around now.

 

[Yugguy]

I don't know what the Remain campaigners would do.

But I can tell you that personally I would have still been very unhappy with the fact that a referendum was held in the first place.

The entire principle of representative democracy is that we choose the people that will lead and govern us.

We choose them based on their ideology, ability, skills, and integrity.

Then we let them get on with the job.

But that is clearly NOT how the Brexit issue was handled.

You really think politicians are all selfless servants of the public? Most voting is done on a least-worst basis.

Referanda are an accepted and well-used way of making major country-wide decisions.

 

[Scott_F]

Obtuse for the sake of it now. I picked one single, random link from the google results.

This attitude was prevelant during the runup to the referendum and is still around now.

Well then pick a credible one instead of one from a right-wing bigot with his own subversive agenda.

 

[Deleted96908]

Left wing bigots ok though?

 

[Scott_F]

Left wing bigots ok though?

I suppose that would depend on where your tolerance lies but he happened to post a link to a right-wing one.

 

[Yugguy]

Well then pick a credible one instead of one from a right-wing bigot with his own subversive agenda.

I don't believe I could find one that you would deem credible.

It's a pointless conversation really, we hold diametrically opposite views.

 

[Scott_F]

I don't believe I could find one that you would deem credible.

It's a pointless conversation really, we hold diametrically opposite views.

I'm not entirely sure that we do.

But Guido Fawkes ?? Come on !

 

[Peter103]

Yes MJ, that's all well and good, and in principle sounds marvellous, but you and I both know that the electorates decisions are mostly led by a particular parties "Manifesto", and often they're not worth tuppence, tossed aside just as soon as their bottoms hit the green leather of the commons. A People's Referendem is a right and proper way to decide in a democracy, and now it is up to our elected leaders to carry out the wishes of "Their Decision" yes, let's not forget that, it was parliament's idea that we should be given the choice, it is now up to them to get on with it and stop cowtowing to the "Guardianstas," European Buffoons, Remoaners et Al.



MJ

The entire principle of representative democracy is that we choose the people that will lead and govern us.

We choose them based on their ideology, ability, skills, and integrity.

Then we let them get on with the job.

 

[DSM10000]

I don't know what the Remain campaigners would do.

But I can tell you that personally I would have still been very unhappy with the fact that a referendum was held in the first place.

The entire principle of representative democracy is that we choose the people that will lead and govern us.

We choose them based on their ideology, ability, skills, and integrity.

Then we let them get on with the job.

But that is clearly NOT how the Brexit issue was handled.

Mark

Your point stands for the vast majority of Parliamentary business because the Government will, generally, be trying to put in place the manifesto on which they were elected pretty much in the hope of being re-elected further down the line. (Let us not forget the Referendum was a manifesto promise!)

Some decisions however such as the question of our relationship with the EU and the rest of the World are so fundamental to how we see our future as a Nation that it had to be decided by a separate vote. It was a decision to be taken largely outside of traditional party politics and boundaries as the 2 major parties (and most of the rest) were overwhelmingly in favour of remaining.

To have left it entirely to Parliament would have led to accusations of MP's voting on the lines of vested interest in many cases as the vote would have certainly been to remain, especially as there was a growing opinion of negativity in the country towards the EU and the direction it was taking. It certainly would not have reflected what many MP's constituents felt or wished for and those feelings were well formed long before the stupidity of both the Leave and Remain campaigns were launched.

A huge number of people in the UK were disaffected with EU membership and, as is their right, wanted a platform to express that. I seriously doubt that either campaign swayed any significant numbers of people in their voting intentions.

I am sure most of us here have seen Governments elected that we would rather not have but you accept the will of the majority, you do not immediately start looking for reasons to ignore democratic principles and try to reverse a result.

As others have said on here, a second referendum would bring with it the potential of far more and longer term damage to our Country in terms of polarisation,division and animosity than any short to medium term effects of leaving the EU.

 

[Scott_F]

Some decisions however such as the question of our relationship with the EU and the rest of the World are so fundamental to how we see our future as a Nation that it had to be decided by a separate vote. It was a decision to be taken largely outside of traditional party politics and boundaries as the 2 major parties (and most of the rest) were overwhelmingly in favour of remaining.

To have left it entirely to Parliament would have led to accusations of MP's voting on the lines of vested interest in many cases as the vote would have certainly been to remain, especially as there was a growing opinion of negativity in the country towards the EU and the direction it was taking. It certainly would not have reflected what many MP's constituents felt or wished for and those feelings were well formed long before the stupidity of both the Leave and Remain campaigns were launched.

The referendum had nothing whatsoever to do with the issue being so important that it had to be decided by a separate vote. If Cameron had thought he'd lose then he wouldn't have called it and he will forever rue the day that he did.

Instead, it was about Westminster politics and the Tories with a narrow Commons majority wanting to shore up their vote in the face of growing encroachment from UKIP whilst trying to heal long-standing divisions within the party over Europe. Cameron had bought LibDem support for his coalition with a referendum on electoral reform which was a safe bet, saw off the SNP with the independence referendum that very nearly went badly wrong for him and he gambled that he could pull off the trick for a third time and kill off the UKIP threat. He couldn't and the rest, as they say, is history.....

 

[Dryce]

I don't believe I could find one that you would deem credible.
It's a pointless conversation really, we hold diametrically opposite views.

I would just leave it.

I thought your link was crap too - but I think you'll notice that the person picking away at you just does that sometimes - I'm not sure whether you are supposed to prostate yourself and ask for forgiveness or whether you are supposed to go on some extended quest to bring back a perfect link to satisfy his (her?) craving for it.

Just leaving it and not allowing yourself to get irritated is less hassle.

 

[Dryce]

The same vote in choosing our governmnet, absolutely yes.

But not 'the same vote' on each and every matter.

That's the difference betwen a representative democracy and direct democracy.

The latter only works in small groups.

So universal democracy when the big parties control what's on offer.

And selective democracy for a few on other stuff.

I'm not entirely happy with that. I think that referendums (referenda?) are risky things. But the EUref demonstrated itself as an example of something that the country as a whole had a different opinion on compared with the overal establishment - including those parties.

Consider what has been said in other posts - it was only offered up on the assumption that the result would go with the status quo and that it would silence the agitators. Some suggest that it would not have been offered up if the eventual result had been expected. How moral is that?

 

[DSM10000]

The referendum had nothing whatsoever to do with the issue being so important that it had to be decided by a separate vote. If Cameron had thought he'd lose then he wouldn't have called it and he will forever rue the day that he did.

Instead, it was about Westminster politics and the Tories with a narrow Commons majority wanting to shore up their vote in the face of growing encroachment from UKIP whilst trying to heal long-standing divisions within the party over Europe. Cameron had bought LibDem support for his coalition with a referendum on electoral reform which was a safe bet, saw off the SNP with the independence referendum that very nearly went badly wrong for him and he gambled that he could pull off the trick for a third time and kill off the UKIP threat. He couldn't and the rest, as they say, is history.....

The point I am making is that (regardless of any of the politicians intent behind it) this had to be a decision taken independently by the voters.

When the proposition to join the EEC was put forward there were many in the country who strongly opposed joining although the Government of the day were strongly in favour, without a referendum many who held those contrary views would not have had a proper chance to show that, the same with the Scottish referendum or do you think that the UK Government knew best and should not have offered Scotland it's chance?

It is the principle that is important not your perceived machinations of politicians behind it but I doubt you are able to see that because as others have said you continue to pick, argue and obfuscate at every post that does not follow your own dogmatic views so I think it is time to re-instate the ignore button for you as you are not adding anything to this thread but are just dragging out the same tired arguments .

Goodbye!