thieving scum aka London Borough of Barnet

[nickg]

......gave me a PCN yesterday during the time that it took me to go and buy a ticket from the pay and display machine.

I have appealed. I've got a pcn timed at 10.22am and a ticket timed at 10.26am.

I should win..............shouldn't I????

 

[Thmsshaun]

That not so bad then I thought SL60 no 2had gone


Still an outrage fingers crossed.

 

[andy_k]

with the times as they are you may struggle, it could be taken that you bought the ticket as soon as you got the ticket in order to avoid paying the fine - you'd need top prove it was more than a 2 minute walk to the machine from where you parked.

However, there may be hope - as long as you are quick, if the area is under CCTV coverage ask the council for a copy of the tape. This really gets up their noses as they have to supply them. If you are lucky you'll get a time coded video of you parking your car - I used this method in Hastings to get one ticket cancelled.

Good luck

Andy

 

[jeremytaylor]

Bear in mind that parking regulations do not 'give you time to get change', and so I'm with andy k on this. You will need to prove that 4 minutes was not enough time for you to get a ticket - might be tough to fight, but good luck!

Also, check out the road markings. Trevor McDonald had a TV prog. a few days ago (Friday 4th on ITV IIRC) about how many road markings are invalid under the Road Traffic Act 1991, and how you can use that to appeal tickets, successfully by all accounts.

 

[nickg]

That not so bad then I thought SL60 no 2had gone


Still an outrage fingers crossed.

- don't even think it!!!

 

[C43AMG]

I have appealed on a number of occasions and have been succesfull, it seems if you bother to appeal it seems to work.

 

[Sp!ke]

I think the outcome will swing on the accuracy of the synchronisation between ticket dispenser and pay and display michine. Obviously if they cannot prove that they were synchronised then you have a strong case.

 

[scumbag]

if you were going to the nearest working machine, had to que, got the ticket and walked back to your car directly, then you may be able to argue the case. if, however you stopped off at the shop for a paper! its gone.

worth arguing, but bear in mind the word reasonable. you are allowed a reasonable time to walk to the Nearest working ticket machine, stand in line for your turn, and walk directly back to your car, no deviations.

anything at all, outside the above and you lose.

a magistrate could determine what is a reasonable length of time to stand in the que at the nearest working machine to your car, but they have time lists and they can be produced. they know exactly when that machine issued what ticket and when. if it spews out 15 in 4 mins, then yours directly after that you may be lucky with a que argument as they do not expect you to run nor barge in! if it hasnt issued a ticket for 2 mins, you lose. and in all cases, it must be the nearest to your car. if it isnt, you lose. as there is 4 minutes in your favour you need to make sure it is the nearest working machine to your car. you can then argue the case that the ticket issuers machine was incorrectly set and that in itself means that you have been treated in an unfair and unreasonable manner. The CCTV footage could be used, but you are questioning the ticket machine and the traffic wardens machine times. so CCTV footage wont be relevent. anyhow, they will quote the data protection act at you to prevent you gaining access. makes no difference. you dont need it. they have to prove that the ticket you were issued with was done in a reasonable time frame bearing in mind your proximity to the machine and car.

however, it isnt their fault you did not look for the nearest machine!

you must also bear in mind, they get about 100 complaints a day all saying the same thing. so unless you can make a special case for yourself it may go west. but dont let this stop you. is it reasonable?

making a case for them to prosecute, which is what they do if you dont wish to pay, takes them time. so they have to issue notices to relevent parties. if there is any doubt, which could be vague or indeed unreasonable they will reconsider your penalty and decide, on this occasion, to not proceed, they will then insult you by telling you to observe the parking enforcements in that borough, next time you park there.

and one further point. do not, at all, question the motives behind your ticket! anybody ranting about local taxes, blocked drains etc. get no where.

stick to the point. you felt it is unfair to be ticketed for parking while you were getting the ticket to park. thats it. nothing else. you have to prove that thats exactly what you did.

 

[nickg]

transcript of my restrained and polite letter........

I am appealing against the PCN which I received yesterday in Golders Green on the grounds that the contravention did not occur. It was issued to me during the time that it took me and my 2 year old child to walk to the pay and display machine, wait for someone else to purchase their ticket, purchase my own ticket, and walk back to my car again. This was no more than a couple of minutes.

It is entirely unreasonable to not allow people a reasonable period of time to leave their car in order to purchase a ticket from the machine.

The PCN was issued at 10.22am. The pay and display ticket that I purchased is timed at 10.26am. I am unconvinced that the two clocks were properly synchronised, given that it did not take me as much as 4 minutes to get my ticket. However, even it was 4 minutes, this is not unreasonable given that I had to wait for someone else to use the machine before me.

I enclose the pay and display ticket and a copy of the PCN.

I look forward to receiving your reply as soon as possible.

 

[Madferrit]

Make sure you keep copies of everything, you'll need it as you go along. And you'll be lucky if you settle this quickly, expect it to take months. Ideally you need to set deadlines for replies, ie "I would like a reply within 3 weeks". Don't be unreasonable, but if you haven't heard within that time write to them and let them know that you've given them time and haven't heard anything back. I found it worked for me to say that they were wasting time and ended up cancelling the ticket.

Good luck!

 

[nickg]

getting it off my chest

what I really meant:

Dear jobsworth

I am a law-abiding citizen who kindly travelled to your borough yesterday to make a significant contribution to your local economy and help the local small businesses pay their over-inflated rates bills (which pay your wages).
Your parasite traffic nazis were obviously out in force yesterday and one of them was hiding round the corner from where I parked my car.
Unbeknownst to me he watched and waited while I got me and my 2yr old little boy out of the car in the p*ssing rain, got his coat on, and walked (at his pace) to the machine to buy a ticket.
He then crept out of his little hidey-hole, having already tapped on his little cash register, so was ready to gleefully slap a PCN on to my car.
He crept away as I returned.

I am appealing against this travesty of justice, not because I can't afford the £40, but because I hope my reaction to this stinking system will create just that little bit of extra work for you and your fellow cretins.

I feel sorry for the people that you prey on for whom £40 is a significant sum. No doubt you feel nothing but pride for the irritation that you cause to society.

I shall think twice before spending any more of my money in your borough. Hopefully, over time, many others will think the same, and one day your employer will find that it is uneconomic to continue to employ you.
.............

 

[scumbag]

I misread your times.

i think you will be lucky if you win this. you bought the ticket after the notice therfore you could easily have been parked for 2 hours before that.

still, they may be feeling happy and decide to give you the benefit of the doubt. If you argue the toss and it goes to a court, you must produce your son! a nice gentleman in a suit being polite and with his happy son in tow will produce a good showing to a magistrate or 3. especially if one is a woman! works a treat. but i dont know how you are going to argue it as you are after the time.

i read it that you got yours before the penalty notice. you are going to have to hope they consider you to be honest. what doesnt help is, it took you 4 mins plus to get your ticket. it will have taken the warden at least 2 mins to print your ticket too. this means you must have left the car at 1019. and that is on the quick side. if the traffic warden saw you park, which is reasonable at the times you state, he would have watched you walk to the pay machine and back. as i stated above. if you deviated, you are done. same applies if you went to machine that wasnt closest to your car.

You must make known that you think the clocks and timings used have not been calibrated and that you are convinced that you parked your car and got your ticket before the time that is stated on the ticket and the penalty. and you must make sure they agree. thsi will only be done if they have enough reason to think the timings are out. if they have afw complaints of the same nature, that day in that area if may make them think. you need to find out how the clocks are set. nice informative council phone call may get to the bottom of this. but you may need to use the odd untruth to get to the bottom of that one.

otherwise they are just going to pass this off as another attempt at getting off.

Good luck tho.

I hope it works.

 

[Sp!ke]

I am unconvinced that the two clocks were properly synchronised

Perhaps you might consider revising that slightly.

 

[grasmere]

"I would like a reply within 3 weeks". Don't be unreasonable, but if you haven't heard within that time write to them and let them know that you've given them time and haven't heard anything back.

agreed but I would state a date eg 01 December.

eg " I give you until 01 December, if nothing is heard by then I will presume you have cancelled the pcn"

 

[Sp!ke]

agreed but I would state a date eg 01 December.

eg " I give you until 01 December, if nothing is heard by then I will presume you have cancelled the pcn"

Since you have 'been served' with the PCN then no such time limit applies.

 

[scumbag]

agreed but I would state a date eg 01 December.

eg " I give you until 01 December, if nothing is heard by then I will presume you have cancelled the pcn"

that does have a chance. but its better if they reply to your first letter with, we are investigating your complaint, and then fail to honour your request of a reply by 1st december. an acknowledgement is not deemed a reply.

but if they dont acknowledge your letter they may not have recieved, even if they have. know what i mean?

they will publish, somewhere, how and how quick they reply to complaints. might be in the website or in the council offices somewhere. if they fail to follow there own procedures you will get off. in fact....O J Simpson springs to mind. thats what they got him off with. accused them of racism, and their own procedures failed to convince the jury that it wasnt. some people, get away with murder while the rest of us pay parking fines.

good thinking.

 

[Madferrit]

When i had an issue with Harrow Council, i used to hand the letter in, asking the name of the person at the counter each time, to ensure they knew that i was on top of it. Even took out a paper, noting their name down with time and date.

 

[Rumble]

If you are totally convinced that it took you less than 5 min to go get the display ticket then I would request a copy of the boroughs regulation on issuing tickets, some of them say that the warden that comes upon a car that is in violation of the pay and display rules must give a time period eg 5 min before they can even START issuing the ticket. If the owner returns before the limit and decides to leave no ticket can be issued, or in your case returns with a valid ticket then no ticket can be issued.

Also check the road marking where you are parked against the Road Traffic act rules on signs/lines etc for exmple i remember somewhere if double yellow lines are not finished on each end with a thick yellow line then its not to regulation and thus not enforceable.

HTH

 

[chriswt]

I had a friend with a similar case in Walthamstow. I wrote the letter for him and WON. They gave him a ticket within 3 minutes!!!!

Apparently that is there policy. 3 mins and then a ticket. If you mention how this discriminates against the elderly and disabled, which is totally true, then it should send the frighteners up them.

Its so disgusting how they opperate. try www.appealnow.com for more advice.

 

[nickg]

For those interested, I have still had no reply or other contact from LBB since I sent my letter more than 2 months ago. Am I right to assume that they are not taking matters further, and I got off??