Thought provoking Driving Thread

Discussion in 'Driving/Incidents/Roadrage' started by davidjpowell, Dec 13, 2008.

  1. davidjpowell

    davidjpowell Hardcore MB Enthusiast

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    I've just been reading (for the last 2 hours) a thread on Pistonheads, where a driver who lost control on a bend explained the reasons and the consequences of being jailed. It is one of the most thought provoking threads I have ever seen, and has made me examine my own driving. I would sugest it is well worth a glance - the main part starts 5 posts down.

    http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=141&t=442266&i=40

    David
     
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  2. Swiss Toni

    Swiss Toni Hardcore MB Enthusiast

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    All credit to the guy, very well written and very thought provoking.

    It starts like this...

    There is a though-provoking part of the thread on Page 12....

     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2008
  3. Swiss Toni

    Swiss Toni Hardcore MB Enthusiast

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    I can not remember when a bloke ont'internet held my attention in the way this guy has.
     
  4. stevesey

    stevesey Hardcore MB Enthusiast

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    Read the guys version on page 13 as well. He makes no excuses, but does highlight how press coverage and what has been said in the past on internet forums can make things look even worse.

    Also some of the other stories in this thread are very sobering.
     
  5. Uberwagon

    Uberwagon Hardcore MB Enthusiast

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    Crap things happen to good people, both the biker and Ollie.

    He shows a massive amount of character by reacting the way he did, the biker did nothing wrong and his life has been immeasurably affected.

    Dave!
     
  6. rf065

    rf065 Hardcore MB Enthusiast

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    Reminds me of the thread on the BMW forum where a guy from Florida was telling how he thrashed his M5 and looking for advice on making it faster, a few days later, he & his pals all died in it.

    Russ
     
  7. st4

    st4 Banned

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  8. st4

    st4 Banned

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    I agree with this. There was no malicious intent here by 10p short, just a momentry lapse of control. I didn't see the need for a prison stretch. However by not punishing him you send out a message that its okay to lose control of cars and kill people so there needs a balance otherwise you'll have people driving like lunatics and maiming others knowing there is no punishiment. So there needs to be a balance between punishing on the basis of intent and punishing on the basis of consequence. I personally think a community service punishment would have been more appropriate, maybe a lengthier one but imprisonment doesn't seem a fit punishment.
     
  9. rf065

    rf065 Hardcore MB Enthusiast

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  10. st4

    st4 Banned

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  11. stats007

    stats007 MB Club Veteran

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    OT - That has been discussed previously here.

    Everyone should read the link posted by the OP.
     
  12. Carrotchomper

    Carrotchomper Hardcore MB Enthusiast

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    Yep, I've been posting on Pistonheads for quite a while now. It's scary reading, and something to think about when "Pushing the envelope". Doesn't take a massive error to end up like that guy did.
     
  13. oldcro

    oldcro Hardcore MB Enthusiast

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    Why am I reading lots of support for 10 Pence Short here who through his own stupid actions ruined another mans life, leaving him crippled, in pain and unable to support his family for the rest of his life?

    Ask the bikers family if they thought his sentence was too harsh as they are the ones who's lives have been ruined, through speed and showing off.
     
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  14. st4

    st4 Banned

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    And the biker lived - its by no means the worst story I've heard. There was a sad case on that thread where someone managed to kill their 6yr old son by driving like an ****.

    There is someone I know of who killed someone as a result of drink driving. Jim lived 500 yards from his of choice, but is quite lazy so drives to the pub and drives back. He has been doing this for years before the fateful night where a pregnant woman (and her unborn child were killed). It was a wet rainy night and she was changing the wheel on her car after a puncture, jim didn't see this and ran into her taking her head clean off and she died on scene. Jim was sentanced to 3 years, he was in Barlinie for this IIRC.

    On one hand 3 years seems pretty light for killing someone in a pretty gruesome way (arguably he killed 2). Although we need to bare in mind this is an indirect consequence and there was no malicious intent, so his crime was drink driving but it had much more serious consequences that night.

    However on the other hand his laziness and stupidity (4x over the limit) resulted in the death of 2 people (one of which hadn't even had a chance of life).

    To punish on the consequence of the crime seems harsh and unfair, but its got to act as a deterent for others, otherwise we'll have drunken Jims running folk over and thinking its okay. We need to balance it.

    Initially I thought this sentance was overbaring in what was a motoring offence, but since being released from prison he is back to driving to the pub and having a fair few and driving home. Whats worse he is a truant officer for our local school, and had a few lunch time drinks and drives about our town in this state. On this basis 3 years inside hasn't tought our JIm anything, and now he has been cought drink driving again. I don't want to see him behind bars but in the public good (and in his own) he needs removed from our roads. I can forgive one accident and mistake, but to carry on practicing ones dangerous actions aftering seeing their full potential consequences happen just seems daft.

    The pistonheads poster shows remorse and regret for his mistake, Jim showed nothing and as a result I see even more clearly that prison is a very unsuitable punishment for this sort of crime as it doesn't change the ways of those who's ways need changed. it just buys us 3 years of protection from them. The guilt of what 10p did was punishment enough, and he'll take that to the grave. A prisoner can't give back to society, someone sentanced to community service to do labour can.

    I can see your angle, really I can. But what punishment is suitable? Cutting off 10ps right foot so he can't drive again. What is done cannot be undone, and really no punishment will be of benefit to a) the injured biker b) the injured bikers family. I admire 10p's courage in speaking up, putting his head above the parrapit and trying to apologise to the persons who he indirectly injured. He has had the backbone to admit what he did was wrong, and whilst you may think the punishment was inappropriate he has tried to illustrate to an audience which is into high speed driving that it can, and does go wrong.

    Some reference was made re the speed of the bike, we don't have a clue how fast he was going but given a 2s reaction time that was being quote is the biker 100% innocent. Look at the damage to the honda car, it wasn't dawdling.

    People need to be aware that biking and car driving have that "wrong place wrong time" risk and accept the potential risks of being on the roads, if they cannot they really shouldn't use them as they can't live with the dire consequences of what goes wrong. What if 10p was driving safe and his tyre blew out, and he spun and the biker crashed into him? Then there is no blame but still a horrific accident with terrible human cost.
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2008
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  15. stevesey

    stevesey Hardcore MB Enthusiast

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    I don't know 10 Pence, or exactly now he was driving on that day, so I'm not going to judge him, but he admits he was pushing on and made an error of judgement that had drastic consequences. On any other day the road conditions might have been different, the skid might have just been a slight twitch (if anything), he may have been able to control it, there may have been nothing coming the other way...

    From my point of view any support for 10 Pence is not for his actions prior to the accident, but the way he has accepted responsibility and is offering his story as a warning to others.

    Also I think we should remember that we don't have to be pushing on across country for something like this to happen to us, we could equally be distracted whilst driving round the local ring road, or past a school, with similar life changing results.
     
  16. Dieselman

    Dieselman Banned

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    More likely the car was shifting.
    This is supported by two points, one, the car skidded out sideways which just doesn't happen at low speed or by momentary lapse of concentration, and two, His bike had been thrown some 14 metres back the way it came.
    If the car was going slowly or stopped the bike would travel forwards at the point of impact, it went backwards so the energy in the collision must have come from the car not the bike.

    I read the whole thread earlier and absolutely applaud 10p for accepting the consequences of his actions and accepting the blame was his and not the poor motorcyclist.
    Without a doubt he appears full of regret but he admits he was driving dangerously, which is what he was correctly sentenced for.
     
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  17. st13phil

    st13phil MB Club Veteran

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    Agreed. The guy sounds as though he took full responsibility for what he caused to happen very early in the process - in fact at the scene - and I suspect that his remorse and regret were not affected in any way by the fact that he ended up being punished through imprisonment.

    The British justice system has many faults, but one good feature of it is that people are (generally) sentenced for the nature of their transgression rather than the consequences. Sentencing based primarily upon the outcome of actions - that are often random in nature - is a dangerous step away from punishment towards vengeance and retribution.
     
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  18. Swiss Toni

    Swiss Toni Hardcore MB Enthusiast

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  19. st4

    st4 Banned

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    I take your point entirely and agree with all you say apart from the bit I put in bold. The final part, not the conviction, but the sentance itself I feel is a matter of debate. Lets say there was no injury to a 3rd party and this skid was a "cought on camera " conviction, would they go prison - probably not. They'd get a fine (another bone of contention of mine but we've been over this before), points on the licence and maybe a small ban.

    The crime itself (of 10p) is dangerous driving, morally anyway. The consequence of that crime is the tragic consequence, but there is no malcicous intent, hence the reasoning behing my post. Some will agree, some will agree. These are my opinions, not hard facts ;)

    Back to the speed of the bike, we'll never know, unless the speedo jammed @ the point of impact and I am glad for one that this isn't the case because the biker has well and truly suffered enough, even if it was entirely his fault.

    Given the nature of the road, you'd have to be going very slowly to see your stopping distance @ all times IMHO
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2008
  20. Swiss Toni

    Swiss Toni Hardcore MB Enthusiast

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    Doesn't it tend to be the difference between Malicious Intent, Foolish/Stupid Bevaiour and Noble-Cause Corruption that gets folks hot under the collar when they read a less than accurate summary of a court case in the local rag?
     

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