time to leave the eu?

[nick mercedes]

"Britain is facing isolation in Europe after David Cameron vetoed a revision of the Lisbon treaty, prompting a majority of EU members to agree to draw up their own deal outside the architecture of the union.

In one of the most significant developments in Britain's 38-year membership of the EU, the British prime minister said early on Friday morning he could not allow a "treaty within a treaty" that would undermine the UK's position in the single market.

The move marked a victory for Nicolas Sarkozy, who had been pressing for an inter-governmental agreement among the 17 members of the eurozone to underpin tough new fiscal rules for the single currency. "We could not accept this," he said of Cameron's demands.

The French president, who has been pressing for the formalisation of a "two-speed Europe", was pleased on Friday when the number of EU member states indicating their support for a separate treaty reached 23. Britain was joined by Sweden, which rejected euro membership in a referendum, the Czech Republic and Hungary"

"Some in the negotiation said the decision to stand firm would have repercussions. “This is going to cost the UK dearly. They have antagonised everyone,” said one senior EU official"

So why should we bother with it?

They seem to blame us for their mess, and now make threats.

Time to leave?

 

[davidjpowell]

Not time to leave. This is a new chapter in the book.

I don't think we have heard the last of this, but also believe the Euro is doomed.

 

[p1nny]

it was always going to fail, not everyone's economy is the same and therefore cannot survive on a single currency! Thank god we didn't move to the euro!

 

[Mercy1]

"
Time to leave?

Yes. The Eurozone got us into this mess = let them get us out of it. We're in the mire now whether we are in or out. On balance, I'd rather us be out...

 

[WesLangdon]

they blame the whole economic crisis on NewYork and the City of London and want to ensure it doesn't happen again.

 

[Igurisu]

I'm no wizard or expert but it seems that our german and french neighbours want to tax/control the london stock market. They seem to be very envious of the amount of business/revenue generated and want a piece of that pie.

Sod 'em........

 

[corned]

Firmly in the "sod 'em" camp here too...

 

[Mike Walker]

Don't mention your name Pike!

 

[artyman]

Unless there is one mega state, with some oligarchs in totalitarian rule, the single currency is never going to work. The current monetary crisis is not just about the single currency but global economics. Yes the rot does seem to emanate from the sub-prime in the USA, but the US does seem to have a rather influential position, in economic terms, in the world. When launched the Pound stood at around 60p to the euro, currently the Euro is worth around 85p, so on that basis were we right in not joining.

When originally envisaged the EEC was meant to be a trading framework. Since then it has become an overbloated monster, with thousands of jobs, most of which probably do very little to improve our lives, and absorb inordinate amounts of cash to do so. The forthcoming Olympic venture seems to be swallowing cash in the same manner.

As regards our deficit, any housewife will tell you that you cant spend what you don't have, unless you use the credit card, the UK credit card has now reached it's limit. Until we as a country start only spending what we earn, things are only going to get worse. In one sense the Euro is an irrelevance, basic economics means we are going to suffer the pain of adjusting the "UK family" budget so our expenditure matches our income.

Most people pursue money and what it can buy as a means to the pursuit of happiness, now society needs to have a serious think about whether the joy of the 50" plasma is worth the worry of debt, and the fear that there might be a knock at the door with a burly man coming to take it away in any case. This is perhaps getting philosophical, but have we all been deluded by the glossy adverts promising utopia, and it is so easy just sign here.

 

[WesLangdon]

I'm no wizard or expert but it seems that our german and french neighbours want to tax/control the london stock market. They seem to be very envious of the amount of business/revenue generated and want a piece of that pie.

Sod 'em........

the transaction tax would cut down on idle speculation, I am not sure about envy it could just be fear of the damage that these financial centres can do.

 

[grober]

Ah the City of London makes us all rich "fable" . Last time I looked it has made us all a lot poorer by gambling all our money away and then getting bailed out by the taxpayer to prevent financial meltdown putting us all into massive debt . Still at present we are all getting enormous levels of interest /returns on our savings and personal investments ---NOT. The new transaction tax proposed by the EEC is designed to prevent volatile speculative movements of money between currencies which is destabilising countries economies. They have cottoned on to the fact that monetary stability is not what these financial institutions want. Its when the markets are fluctuating they make money. Sure its going to impinge of the City Of London earnings - but since you were never going to see any of that international multinational money anyway what's the problem.

Remember also that a failure of the Euro would at a stroke remove the EEC's "weapon of mass destruction" feared most by the USA. Trillions in debt the USA'S currency strength partly derives from the fact most of the world's energy is traded in dollars. Not long ago moves were afoot to move some of the world's oil trade into EUROS which would be an economic disaster for the US. its an ill wind as they say. The demise of the dollar - Business News - Business - The Independent

 

[Charles Morgan]

Well, the City in its widest sense provides a significant share of the tax revenues of this country and as Sweden discovered, if you institute this tax in isolation, they just move elsewhere. As the US has precisely zero plans to introduce one (which would be paid not by the banks but by the customers anyway - yippee, even less investment return for us all), we would lose most of that revenue and gain precisely zero in return. The Euro was and remains an abortion of a project, which sensibly we stayed out of. Nice of the French and the Germans, having wrecked the Eurozone economies, to ask us to wreck ours too.

The FTT is yet another manifestation of that grand delusion, the magical money tree. Beloved of all those who think you can just keep spending spending and spending, all the time thinking someone else will pay. As it keeps on being said, if you don't want to bow to the demands of the markets, don't spend so much you need to borrow for them.

 

[Dryce]

Trillions in debt the USA'S currency strength partly derives from the fact most of the world's energy is traded in dollars. Not long ago moves were afoot to move some of the world's oil trade into EUROS which would be an economic disaster for the US. its an ill wind as they say.

It's simply priced in dollars - you don't actually need dollars to buy it.

Moreover the price isn't fixed in dollars. It's just widely represented as such. Any volatility in the dollar is also reflected in the dollar price of oil.

If the dollar was genuinely signifcant in pricing then the dollar price wouldn't change due to changes in the dollar - it would remain fixed.

 

[Dryce]

Well, the City in its widest sense provides a significant share of the tax revenues of this country

It generates funny money tax on funny money - which is in itself a problem.

I don't think that the City really grasps this fact either - because to own up to it is to do a Ratner.

Public and government are fickle too.

If everything is tickety-boo nobody wants to ask about the funny money and the real underlying value of the economy. They all want their piece of the apparently bigger pie. Leverage is what the clever people do.

When the bubble goes pop they all want to whip the funny money boys and leverage is apparently for reckless fools.

Regulation of the City does need to change - along with attitudes. And if that means taking some pain to get rid of the funny money then so be it.

 

[nick mercedes]

It generates funny money tax on funny money - which is in itself a problem.

Smoke and mirrors economy, innit.

"The City of London (accounting for roughtly four percent of UK GDP, out of a total financial services sector of around 9 percent of GDP)"

Note the lengths taken to save casino banking's 4% of GDP, while manufacturing which is far more important, has been ignored.

 

[grober]

The City's contribution to the UK economy

The City of London’s contribution to the national income is estimated at 2.4% of the total, while financial services represent 19.5% of total national income (or gross value added) in the whole of London. The financial services sector accounts for 10% of the total national income of Great Britain.
Source: Office for National Statistics and Oxford Economics

The contribution to tax revenues in the UK

The financial services sector as a whole made a total tax contribution of £53.4bn in 2009/10, representing 11.2% of total government tax receipts. This figure includes taxes paid, as well as taxes collected, by the sector. For London as a whole, the net contribution to the exchequer is estimated at £1.4bn in 2009/10 – below that achieved in earlier years as a result of the recession. Forecasts suggest that over the medium term London’s net contribution should return to the levels seen prior to the financial crisis.
Sources: PwC and City of London, Total Tax Contribution of UK Financial Services, December 2010 (528k). Oxford Economics and City of London, London’s Competitive Place in the UK and Global Economies, January 2011 (1140k)


source:- Research and statistics FAQ

I guess it depends on how you define " substantial"

 

[Charles Morgan]

Doesn't stop the government from spending the funny money tax though, but hey, we are rolling in cash at present. I am too busy today even to begin to debate the nature of the City, other than to suggest that it encompasses far more than trading.

As to the pain, well, I recall similar things being said about unemployment as our manufacturing industry collapsed. There is a marvellous strain of masochistic millenarianism in this country that somehow we can let entire industries collapse, and some how, miraculously, there will be new ones along to compensate. I suppose we could end up taking each others calls in call centres on a variation of the chinese laundry model, but if an axe is to be taken, far better it is one as a sovereign nation that we have agreed for ourselves, and most certainly not one where the revenue is paid to other nations with us bearing the vast majority of the cost.

 

[stevieb15]

It generates funny money tax on funny money - which is in itself a problem.

I don't think that the City really grasps this fact either - because to own up to it is to do a Ratner.

Public and government are fickle too.

If everything is tickety-boo nobody wants to ask about the funny money and the real underlying value of the economy. They all want their piece of the apparently bigger pie. Leverage is what the clever people do.

When the bubble goes pop they all want to whip the funny money boys and leverage is apparently for reckless fools.

Regulation of the City does need to change - along with attitudes. And if that means taking some pain to get rid of the funny money then so be it.

Define "funny money" for me please

 

[clever dicky]

No one mentioned what france & germany feel about the EU ?
They say there isnt but im sure this pair Do bear a grudge towards the UK and always have, always will.

They will only make life difficult if we leave but i thin we should never have joined in the first place.
Shame on those that got us in this mess in the first place. Just an expensive exercise in ego ism.

 

[Nik_Endeavour]

Define "funny money" for me please

There was a post here somewhere about a bar, a bank, some alcoholics and some debt.

Edit: Actually make that a LOT of debt