Towing questions ...

[Flyer]

Need some advice on the legalities of towing please chaps.

A Mitsubishi L200 has a braked Towing capacity of 2700kg. A Brian James (braked) trailer has a gross capacity of 3000kg, load capacity of 2150kg.

My understanding is that it is legal to tow a vehicle and trailer combination upto 2700kg, so ...

Trailer Gross: 3000
Load: 2150

Difference: 850 (i.e. the weight of the trailer?)

So ...

L200: 2700
Trailer: 850

Difference: 1850kg (i.e. the maximum weight of the vehicle to be towed)

Is that correct? Plodd if you are about, could you confirm the legalities of this please?

 

[jimmy]

You must not exceed the vehicles towing capacity so the load and weight of the trailer must not exceed 2700kg (even though the trailer can carry more) Also make sure you do not exceed the vehicles maximum train weight, ie the laden vehicle + laden trailer. Also check your license, not everybody can legally drive a vehicle and trailer, but you are old like me so should be OK!!

 

[Flyer]

You must not exceed the vehicles towing capacity so the load and weight of the trailer must not exceed 2700kg (even though the trailer can carry more)

Got that.

Also make sure you do not exceed the vehicles maximum train weight, ie the laden vehicle + laden trailer.

These are the figures from Mitsi:

WEIGHTS/VOLUMES
Seating capacity 5
Fuel tank capacity lts (imp.galls) 75 (16.5)
Gross vehicle weight kg (lbs) 2830 (6239)
Kerb weight kg (lbs) 1765 (3892)
Max payload capacity (for tax purposes) kg (lbs) 1065 (2348)
Towing capacity, braked kg (lbs) 2700 (5953)
Towing capacity, unbraked kg (lbs) 500 (1102)
Trailer nose weight kg (lbs) 100 (220)

So, 2700-850=1850kg. That's OK then?

Also check your license, not everybody can legally drive a vehicle and trailer, but you are old like me so should be OK!!

Cheeky git Just run in, me

 

[mikemoss]

Er, someone's missing the point here. The 'towing capacity' means just that - what the thing is physically capable of moving up a certain incline. The vital weight is the kerb weight, and that's 1765kg. Try and tow anything above that weight, and you're not only illegal but likely to end up upside down in a ditch. Better stick to the accepted recommendation and never tow anything above 85% of the kerb weight unless you're an experience tower, then get a tad nearer to 100%. Never above.

Having said all that, I'm nod Mr Plod so disregard me if you like.

 

[Flyer]

Er, someone's missing the point here.

Yep, me; that's why I've posted for some advice.

The 'towing capacity' means just that - what the thing is physically capable of moving up a certain incline.

Towing capacity, braked kg (lbs) 2700 (5953)
Towing capacity, unbraked kg (lbs) 500 (1102)

So, why does it matter whether the trailer is braked or unbraked if it applies to an incline? (Serious question! )

The vital weight is the kerb weight, and that's 1765kg. Try and tow anything above that weight, and you're not only illegal but likely to end up upside down in a ditch.

See, this is where I get confused. Why do the manufacturers mention towing capacity if it's kerb weight that you have to consider? Is the kerb weight figure the weight of the trailer and the vehicle on it? If so, the L200 is pretty much useless for towing!

Look how these figures interact:
Gross vehicle weight: 2830kg
Kerb weight: 1765kg
Max payload capacity: 1065kg

Kerb Weight + Payload = GVW

... in fact, scrub all that. You know the spec of the L200. The trailer spec is as follows:

Gross capacity: 3000kg
Load capacity: 2150kg

I take that to mean the trailer weighs 850kg (it's a Race Shuttle)? Agreed? Given these figures, what is the maximum vehicle weight that I can carry?

Going on your figures, the max would be 1500kg. Take away the trailer and I might be able to carry a 1960s Mini

I don't know, which is why I've posted here for advice. Perhaps an L200 isn't the answer

 

[colin.dillon]

Towing weight

In a nutshell it's as Jimmy has already said - it is illegal to tow anything that weighs heavier than the towing vehicle's kerbweight. Ideally, unless you're experienced, you shouldn't tow anything that's more than 80-85%.

Col

 

[jimmy]

I think somebody has bought some confusion into this.

Somewhere on the vehicle, usually under the bonnet, there is a plate with the maximum permissible axle weights, gross vehicle weight and gross train weight. Obviously the trailer must not exceed the gross train weight less the weight of the towing vehicle and its payload.

For example:

Gross Train weight = 3000Kg
Vehicle Kerb weight = 1500Kg
Vehicle Payload = 500Kg
Total vehicle Weight is 2000Kg so the trailer including the weight of the actual trailer must not exceed 1000Kg.

I should know, I have been to court and received a fine. Thanks to MB and a Vito van and Ifor Williams trailer. Just remember that manufacturers do not include silly things like seats, fuel and driver in their calculations!!

The 85% rule is generally used for caravans something like a L200 will have no trouble safely pulling a heavy, well maintained braked trailer. Make sure the brakes do work properly.

 

[Flyer]

I think somebody has bought some confusion into this.

Somewhere on the vehicle, usually under the bonnet, there is a plate with the maximum permissible axle weights, gross vehicle weight and gross train weight. Obviously the trailer must not exceed the gross train weight less the weight of the towing vehicle and its payload.

For example:

Gross Train weight = 3000Kg
Vehicle Kerb weight = 1500Kg
Vehicle Payload = 500Kg
Total vehicle Weight is 2000Kg so the trailer including the weight of the actual trailer must not exceed 1000Kg.

I should know, I have been to court and received a fine. Thanks to MB and a Vito van and Ifor Williams trailer. Just remember that manufacturers do not include silly things like seats, fuel and driver in their calculations!!

The 85% rule is generally used for caravans something like a L200 will have no trouble safely pulling a heavy, well maintained braked trailer. Make sure the brakes do work properly.

Thanks Jimmy; regrettably, I'm still not clear. Conflicting information! I don't have the vehicle yet, so can't look under the bonnet and Mitsu don't state the GTW on their website.

Different tack. Here's some figures from a Ford Ranger:

Weight and Loads
Payload Net: 1060kg
Payload Gross: 1135kg
Gross Vehicle Mass: 2845kg
Kerbweight: 1710kg
Max GTM: 5645kg

Key: Payload Net Gross vehicle mass, less kerbweight, less allowance of 75 kg for driver. Payload Gross Gross vehicle mass, less kerbweight. GVM Gross vehicle mass. The total permissible all-up weight of a rigid vehicle – i.e. with body, payload, ancillaries, fuel, oil, water, driver and crew. uKerbweight – The weight of the complete vehicle and all equipment including fuel and water, but without the payload, driver or any crew. All kerbweights quoted are subject to manufacturing tolerances and are for vehicles with minimum equipment. GTM Gross train mass. The total permissable all-up weight of a rigid vehicle (see GVM) together with its trailer and load.

Maximum gross trailer capacities
Unbraked: 750 kg
Braked: 2800 kg

Trailers of the above capacities should only be used within the plated GTM limits. Dependent on the driveline combination and payload carried by the prime mover, it may not be possible to tow trailers of the maximum capabilities mentioned. The gross mass of the trailer should be equal to, or less than, the prime mover when being towed. A tachograph may be required for towing.

So, simple question: given the information above, and this information about the trailer:

Gross capacity: 3000kg
Load capacity: 2150kg

What is the maximum weight that I can legally carry on the trailer?

Following your calculations, I get: 5645 - 2845 - 850 = 1950kg (should be enough! ). What do you (and anybody else) think?

And now I have to read up about tachographs!

Thanks guys for any help

 

[mikemoss]

It's all too hard isn't it? Yes, that '85%' bit is advice for caravanners (ie don't tow more than 85% of your towing vehicle's kerb weight) and I've always taken manufacturers' towing limits with a huge pinch of salt. I've no chapter and verse on how they arrive at this, but seem to remember reading something about hills and stuff.

At the end of the day, I wouldn't be at all happy at towing a load (trailer plus contents) weighing more than the kerb weight of the towing vehicle, as a slight snake could very easily develop into a full tail-wagging-the-dog situation. Guess it's worse with caravans because of their large sail area, but physics is physics and a heavier weight will always want to control a lighter one.

Confused? I certainly am! Hope it all works out for you Flyer, and I wish you happy (and safe) towing with whatever you end up with.

 

[Subyland]

In a nutshell it's as Jimmy has already said - it is illegal to tow anything that weighs heavier than the towing vehicle's kerbweight. Ideally, unless you're experienced, you shouldn't tow anything that's more than 80-85%.

Col

That is not correct. The legal towing limit is as defined by the manufacturer and can be over the vehicle kerbweight. It is part of the EU homologation process of a new car.

Ex: S210 kerb=1700kg
max towing weight =1900kg

but at all times all the plated weights must be respected.

 

[Ashley]

My shogun can tow a livestock box that is around 3500kg (5 good sized cows) when packed full and around 3000kg (5 average cows) most of the time. I know the weight of the stock so know that’s about right and it handles OK. I did want to look at the l200 because of the loophole, but the dealer told me in his experience the l200 would be pushing it towing such a large box (Norjac @ CARNFORTH). I disbelieved him thinking he was trying to keep me interested in the gun so I had a mate tow me to market in his we did it ok but the car struggled and I settled on the gun. I was a bit p***ed off as I was buying it for the same reasons you are properly and I was going to put it down as all business and claim the lot back. Ask your Mitsu dealer to help you by arranging a test with one of the second hand ones.

 

[Ashley]

and the weight of the trailer

 

[Benzowner]

Flyer, 1st Question, did you pass your driving test after 1997, there is a whole new set of rules to cover that If not, the law states that the trailer should not excede the MAM weight of the towing vehicle and in any case should not be more than 3500kg. What are you trying to tow? Maybe worth looking at a 7.5tonne lorry instead.

 

[Flyer]

Thanks guys, but I still haven't got an answer! Look at my last post (#8 I think), all the figures are there.

Zooman, I think you're saying that I won't have a problem towing upto about 2000kg - is that right? Sorry, but what loophole?

Geoff, passed my test in '85. Don't want a lorry! MAM? There's another new acronym - now I know how computer newbies feel!

Mike, it is a bit hard - but shouldn't be!

I'm now looking at the L200, Ford Ranger and Nissan Navara. I just need a reasonable-cost pick-up truck and covered trailer that can tow upto a medium-sized car (for example, an M3 Cab at 1655kg). I believe that any of these vehicles will do the job capably and legally ... but the difference of opinions is a little disconcerting

 

[Dieselman]

I'm now looking at the L200, Ford Ranger and Nissan Navara. I just need a reasonable-cost pick-up truck and covered trailer that can tow upto a medium-sized car (for example, an M3 Cab at 1655kg). I believe that any of these vehicles will do the job capably and legally ... but the difference of opinions is a little disconcerting

My understanding is that as long as you don't go over the towing capacity of the vehicle, combined weight of trailer and load, and that the total train weight isn't exceeded then you are within limits.

If the trailor can't exceed the vehicle weight then how does an articulated lorry get by. The tractor unit is typically 7 tonnes, total train weight 42 tonnes.

There are loads of bodyshops, accident management companies, vehicle deliverers, using 4x4 and trailor combo for car deliveries, so it should be Ok.

 

[glojo]

I'm now looking at the L200, Ford Ranger and Nissan Navara. I just need a reasonable-cost pick-up truck and covered trailer that can tow upto a medium-sized car (for example, an M3 Cab at 1655kg). I believe that any of these vehicles will do the job capably and legally ... but the difference of opinions is a little disconcerting

Hi Flyer,
I certainly feel for you here and I thought, "What would I do in your shoe's"

I would quite literally pop along to my local Police Traffic Department and have them explain to me in great and very simple detail, the nitty grit bits of information that I required, if that drew a blank then I would go along to the Ministry folks at the local public weighbridge and ask them.

You are desperately trying to find out some technical information and hopefully all will be resolved.... eventually.

Have a nice day,
John

 

[Flyer]

Dieselman, very good point about artics.

Cheers John. Good ideas. I had hoped that Plodd would reply with the official view. I know that Land Rovers (and *only* Land Rovers as they are specifically mentioned in the Act) are treated differently with regards to towing.

Clearly, a salesman will probably tell me all I want to know, but I wanted some facts before going in. Bit more complicated than I thought

 

[glojo]

Clearly, a salesman will probably tell me all I want to know,

I think there is a typo there.

Clearly a salesman will probably tell me what I want to HEAR is perhaps more accurate.

Perhaps I am being pessimistic and your sales person will be most helpful, but don't forget it is your driving licence.

Good luck,
John

 

[Benzowner]

Flyer, I would say your maths in you first post are correct. MAM is the new achronym for gross weight it is maximum allowable mass. So technically your trailer with a MAM of 3000kg is too heavy for the car, you could get pulled I know the problem,my daughter passed her test after 1997 and needs to take a towing test for her to tow a horse box. With the current legislation, she can tow a single horse box because it is just under the 4.05 tonnes mam train weight, without taking a test. If she puts a double horse box with one horse in it, she is braking the law because the MAM will excede the 4.05 tonnes, and she would need to pass the test. Try the DVLA site, I usually type towing in the google search engine and it appears in the list, you will really get confused, best of luck.

 

[Flyer]

John, yes, you are quite correct

Geoff, cheers for that. I tried the DVLA and VOSA sites; neither were very helpful.

I've found a useful site: National Trailer & Towing Association. It looks like a tachograph will be needed, which is a bit of a pain. Think I might fire an email off to Brian James Trailers as they must come across these concerns all the time.