Towing with an E400d Estate

[GavinP]

Hi, am looking for the forums shared expertise / advice related to pulling a largish caravan.

My car is 340 bhp, 4WD with 9 speed auto with a GVW of 1,995 kg and Max permissible towing limit 2,100 kg.

Aware that the Caravan Club recommend only 85% of GVW so that would be 1,695 kg.

The issue is the caravan we would prefer is
Maximum Technically Permitted Laden Mass is stated as 1,885 kg
Mass in Running order is 1,725 kg. (including self levelling)
Twin axle motor movers adds 60 kg
Initial Personal payload of 160 kg reduces to 100 kg
If we add Air Con at 30kg it reduces further to 70 kg

But surely that just means what we put in the caravan - not what we put in the estate?
We would have just two people in the vehicle.

Bottom line, would I be pushing my luck at this level, please?

G

 

[Smiley]

Spend your money on holiday cottages and hotels, no need to tow anything then.

 

[GavinP]

Only mildy amusing and not really a lot of help, Smiley!

 

[BTB 500]

Hi, am looking for the forums shared expertise / advice related to pulling a largish caravan.

My car is 340 bhp, 4WD with 9 speed auto with a GVW of 1,995 kg and Max permissible towing limit 2,100 kg.

Aware that the Caravan Club recommend only 85% of GVW so that would be 1,695 kg.

The issue is the caravan we would prefer is
Maximum Technically Permitted Laden Mass is stated as 1,885 kg
Mass in Running order is 1,725 kg. (including self levelling)
Twin axle motor movers adds 60 kg
Initial Personal payload of 160 kg reduces to 100 kg
If we add Air Con at 30kg it reduces further to 70 kg

But surely that just means what we put in the caravan - not what we put in the estate?
We would have just two people in the vehicle.

Bottom line, would I be pushing my luck at this level, please?

G

The guideline is actually 85% of the car's kerbweight, not its maximum weight. This is for stability - to ensure that if the caravan is disturbed by crosswinds or buffeting the car has enough mass to damp out this motion. You should assume that the caravan will be operating at MTPLM ... it's actually quite hard to keep below it. Having said that, the 85% guideline is quite conservative and pre-dates things like the stability systems many new caravans have. With care you can probably go up to a 100% match, but you do also need to consider noseweight. The guideline is that it should be set to 5-7% of the caravan's laden weight i.e. 95-132 kg for an 1885 kg caravan. What's the noseweight limit for your car/towbar?

The other thing to check is what your driving licence covers you for in terms of towing. If you passed your test before 1997 you are OK but after that you are limited to a combined weight of 3500 kg for the car & caravan (based on the maximum possible weight of both) until you take a separate towing test:

Towing with a car

Towing trailers, caravans and horseboxes with a car, including the weight and size limits, and what licence you need to have

www.gov.uk

 

[Benzowner]

Twin axle caravans are usually more stable in crosswinds than the single axle vans. Providing you drive steady, towing 1885kg shouldn't be a problem, but make sure you have engine and gearbox oil coolers fitted if you intend any long haul trips up mountains.

As regards weights, do bear in mind that the GVW of the car will include the weight of the down force of the caravan on the tow hitch when attached, so if say 80kg nose weight on the van, that must be deducted off the GVW of the car to leave you with what can be carried in the car.

 

[GavinP]

The guideline is actually 85% of the car's kerbweight, not its maximum weight. This is for stability - to ensure that if the caravan is disturbed by crosswinds or buffeting the car has enough mass to damp out this motion. You should assume that the caravan will be operating at MTPLM ... it's actually quite hard to keep below it. Having said that, the 85% guideline is quite conservative and pre-dates things like the stability systems many new caravans have. With care you can probably go up to a 100% match, but you do also need to consider noseweight. The guideline is that it should be set to 5-7% of the caravan's laden weight i.e. 95-132 kg for an 1885 kg caravan. What's the noseweight limit for your car/towbar?

The other thing to check is what your driving licence covers you for in terms of towing. If you passed your test before 1997 you are OK but after that you are limited to a combined weight of 3500 kg for the car & caravan (based on the maximum possible weight of both) until you take a separate towing test:

Towing with a car

Towing trailers, caravans and horseboxes with a car, including the weight and size limits, and what licence you need to have

www.gov.uk

BTB 500 Appreciate your input.
Nose weight quoted for car is 84kg - but EC directive covering this says "not less than 4% of max quoted towing weight". Mercedes have quoted 4% of the quoted towing capacity. Even stranger, the V5C quotes Mass in Service = 1,995 kg, 2,100 kg max towing limit, 2,665 kg max vehicle weight so Gross Train Weight would be 2,665+2,100 = 4,765 kg.
However, Mercedes label inside drivers door shows max vehicle weight as 2,665 kg but gross train weight as 4,865 kg which would make towing max 2,200 kg.
Even more confusing weighed car with 90% fuel & no people and it registered 2,100 - yet quoted 1,995 should include a 75 kg driver! Even allowing for tolerance on weigh bridge +/- 60 kg would make my vehicle min 2,040 which when you add their std 75kg driver would be 2,115 kg.
So seriously confusing.

Happily, I passed test well before 1997!

 

[GavinP]

Twin axle caravans are usually more stable in crosswinds than the single axle vans. Providing you drive steady, towing 1885kg shouldn't be a problem, but make sure you have engine and gearbox oil coolers fitted if you intend any long haul trips up mountains.

As regards weights, do bear in mind that the GVW of the car will include the weight of the down force of the caravan on the tow hitch when attached, so if say 80kg nose weight on the van, that must be deducted off the GVW of the car to leave you with what can be carried in the car.

Won't be doing mountains!
Only 2 of us and we travel light so staying under 2,665 kg GVW should not be an issue.

 

[BTB 500]

Nose weight quoted for car is 84kg - but EC directive covering this says "not less than 4% of max quoted towing weight". Mercedes have quoted 4% of the quoted towing capacity. Even stranger, the V5C quotes Mass in Service = 1,995 kg, 2,100 kg max towing limit, 2,665 kg max vehicle weight so Gross Train Weight would be 2,665+2,100 = 4,765 kg.
However, Mercedes label inside drivers door shows max vehicle weight as 2,665 kg but gross train weight as 4,865 kg which would make towing max 2,200 kg.
Even more confusing weighed car with 90% fuel & no people and it registered 2,100 - yet quoted 1,995 should include a 75 kg driver! Even allowing for tolerance on weigh bridge +/- 60 kg would make my vehicle min 2,040 which when you add their std 75kg driver would be 2,115 kg.

You need to be a little careful on noseweight as it's possible for the towbar to have a lower rating than the car's limit (this is normally stamped on a plate on the bracket), but factory/OEM should be fine. 4% is a bit low for a caravan (because of the side area and high centre of gravity) but as mentioned modern ones with ATC etc. are generally pretty good (particularly twin axles) so you should be fine IMHO.

Errors on V5s are quite common so I wouldn't take too much notice of what's written there - the only thing that matters legally is what's on the VIN plate. Digressing a bit but vehicle weights are a bit of a minefield - for a start manufacturer quoted kerbweight / unladen weight / mass in service is usually subject to a +/- tolerance. It also always excludes anything beyond base spec. fitted to the vehicle (factory options etc.), which can make a significant difference when totted up - towbar & fittings, roof rails/bars, uprated battery, full size spare and so forth. I had some fun & games with this when ordering our Vito as in order to qualify as a 'Dual Purpose Vehicle' (subject to normal car speed limits, rather than the lower van ones) the unladen weight cannot exceed 2040 kg, and the V6 version was already quite close. MB supplied a fitted weight (+/- x kg) for each factory option I was considering and I used that to work out what could be included while staying below 2040 kg.

 

[GavinP]

Thank you for the info.
Re nose weight - Merc say max of 84kg - the EC Directive says MIN of 4%. Am going to contact MB technical to see if they are willing to clarify.
The issue of weight issued by manufacturer is certainly confusing.
Your comment re base spec weights is understood.
I ordered a Premium Plus but added lots of extras to that, some of which I assume are quite heavy e.g. Panoramic sunroof. Also would think 20" wheels add a fair bit plus as you said factory fitted retractable tow hitch.
Will now look for a data plate on the hitch

 

[BTB 500]

If MB specify 84 kg maximum noseweight for the car then that's the limit (unless the towbar has a lower rating). If you wanted a 5% noseweight (the bottom end of the Caravan Club's fairly old guideline of 5-7%) that would limit the caravan weight to 1680 kg. But as mentioned I reckon you will be OK with 84 kg on a modern twin axle weighing in at 1885 kg (i.e. 4.4% noseweight).

 

[br1anuk]

Make sure you put as much weight as possible in the car and spread any weight you'll be carrying in the van between the axles and you'll be alright. You'll probably not even notice a caravan behind an E400d.

 

[GavinP]

If MB specify 84 kg maximum noseweight for the car then that's the limit (unless the towbar has a lower rating). If you wanted a 5% noseweight (the bottom end of the Caravan Club's fairly old guideline of 5-7%) that would limit the caravan weight to 1680 kg. But as mentioned I reckon you will be OK with 84 kg on a modern twin axle weighing in at 1885 kg (i.e. 4.4% noseweight).

Ironically, as the not less than 4% refers to "of published towing limit" (2,100 kg) not caravan MTPLM.
As previously mentioned label inside drivers door shut it 2200 (i.e. 4.6% nose weight).

 

[Benzowner]

Re the 84kg nose weight, you may find that a problem getting that much downforce on a twin axle caravan, they sit there quite nicely fairly level on their own

 

[GavinP]

Geoff,

From my research it would seem less than 84 kg is ok (closest to 84 kg is ideal) but it must not be less than 50kg.

Got confirmation from MB that kerb weight of my spec is 2,135 kg which thus drop canto car down to 88% before we add any weight to the estate.

G

 

[HayaOakley]

Hi, am looking for the forums shared expertise / advice related to pulling a largish caravan.

My car is 340 bhp, 4WD with 9 speed auto with a GVW of 1,995 kg and Max permissible towing limit 2,100 kg.

Aware that the Caravan Club recommend only 85% of GVW so that would be 1,695 kg.

The issue is the caravan we would prefer is
Maximum Technically Permitted Laden Mass is stated as 1,885 kg
Mass in Running order is 1,725 kg. (including self levelling)
Twin axle motor movers adds 60 kg
Initial Personal payload of 160 kg reduces to 100 kg
If we add Air Con at 30kg it reduces further to 70 kg

But surely that just means what we put in the caravan - not what we put in the estate?
We would have just two people in the vehicle.

Bottom line, would I be pushing my luck at this level, please?

G

Hi,quite an interesting question, but I cannot give a constructive answer to your question, you can try to contact the technical support of car towing dublin
they will answer you quickly and give you an answer

 

[BfgSLKMan]

So the 85% is really a UK caravan club rule. The only rule which the rest of Europe use is not to exceed the unladed weight of the car or the quoted towing weight (whichever is least). All I can say is that our caravan weighs about 1800kg to 1850kg [although this has now been subject to enforced diet back to 1800kg] with our stuff in it (Hobby 560 UL premium, single axle). Our 220d weighs 2106kg from the factory (so it says on the CoC), to which we add 3 people, a dog and about 100kg of stuff in the car when towing. Noseweight is at 84kg.

Always stable, the strongest cross wind we towed in was 90 kph (yes gale 10) and we had to slow to about 80 kph (50 mph) but anything up to 60/70 kph then there are no stability issues. We tow at 103kph on the speedo which is 100kph in reality and even on the steepest part of the notorious A75 Autoroute pulling out of Narbonne (almost 10% gradient) the car was still pulling at 100kph . Temp gauge didn't move one centigrade.

Bottom line with a 1885kg caravan and an E400d you will not know it is on the back. Please note, that if you do not have the bar fitted from the factory you must upgrade the cooling fan motor from 450w to 600w.

Ref caravan weights:

Hobby say our MIRO is 1602kg all MTLP is 1800kg. The handbook told us that 1602kg include 87 kg for a gas bottle, a full water tank and full toilet flush tank (which we don't carry). So actual kerb weight is (1602kg - 87 Kg) + 96 kg of factory options or 1611kg (+/- 3%). First thing we did was go to the weigh bridge and it was 1610kg, so we knew we had a 190kg payload and then weighed everything going in. That said our van is also uprated to 2 tonnes.

My personal advice is to work out the empty van weight, add back your existing contents (yes - it will shock you when you weigh it) and then add on the mover weight to see what is left for you? We are doing the mover thing now and will actually use a Victron Power Pack, which gives 25mins of movement for 4kg (but we don't use the 12v otherwise as we always plug in the mains so do not need a full leisure battery).

Hope this helps?

 

[BTB 500]

So the 85% is really a UK caravan club rule. The only rule which the rest of Europe use is not to exceed the unladed weight of the car or the quoted towing weight (whichever is least). All I can say is that our caravan weighs about 1800kg to 1850kg

85% is a guideline to ensure good stability ... it has no legal force at all. Legally the maximum braked trailer weight (or gross train weight) and noseweight are what matters. Exceeding either of those is an offence.

 

[BfgSLKMan]

I don't disagree - i'm just saying that the 85% rule is a very British thing. There are plenty of mad Germans who tow the quoted max towing weight, which we all know for most manufacturers is just absolutely the fact it can do a hill start on the quoted slope and not about stability (Ford springs to mind)... I think Mercedes is usually quite sensible in what it quotes?

 

[BTB 500]

Yes for sure, but of course stability depends a lot on what you are towing. A 2 tonne low trailer and a 2 tonne caravan (with a much higher centre of gravity and lot of side area) are very different things! All the car makers can certify is the ability to start/stop/climb inclines/etc. with a certain mass hooked up to the back of the car - the rest is up to the owner. Even a caravan below 85% of kerbweight can be unstable if badly loaded

 

[GavinP]

Thanks for the input - only just seen as been a bit busy!

G