UK Debt / US Debt

[dulayj]

If you think the current banking woes are a problem wait until the big US health companies infiltrate our NHS(well whats left of it)!!!

 

[Charles Morgan]

As a mediaeval historian by degree, the embrace of usury by the Christian west is one of the most interesting and certainly relevant issues in the economic development of the west.

Jews generally ended up as moneylenders as they were not allowed to own land and their involvement in certain trades that supplied the money they could lend. Pogroms may have had their roots in the usual resentment of moneylenders and opportunism (if you killed them, repayment became optional) but also good old fashioned outbreaks at the time of crusades etc.

The Liebeskind Museum of German Jewish life in Berlin is well worth a visit, the history of that sad community being a clear one of vile discrimination and brutalisation for a long time.

 

[stevieb15]

I never mentioned culture or religion. Just the principle of one belief. And that is not to profit from money ie speculate on house prices, buying bonds and even on the trading of Gold and oil. Because lets face it, how much longer can capitalism / debt go on for. Something has to give.
Otherwise we'll end up with some fictional 'credit' system and one central bank we all work for. (who owns the bank ??? )

So in your world no one would build houses, no one would build hosptitals, universities or anything else, because without investment and reward no one will take the risk
If you don't wish to promote "capitalism" or whatever label you wish to give it what do you want? It all sounds a bit wishy washy to me.
The only countries I can think of who have adopted this anti capitalism all folded up with an array of problems ranging from rampant corruption at the top to wide spread ciminality and dissatisfaction from "the people" about poor living standards and lack of personal freedom and expression.
Personally I think those protesting about having to pay something not even close to the market value to gain a p155 poor nothing degree from often second rate institutions are pretty stupid, what they should be doing is seeking gainful employment rather than avoiding the real world at our expense.
Role on the revolution, where we get rid of central control, cut taxes and public spending and expect those who can to support themselves.

 

[Dryce]

why has no one mentioned just how much the USA are in debt?

One might also ask - given the shenanigans in the US at the moment as to why the big ratings agencies haven't downgraded US gov debt right now - as opposed to people speculating that they might lose their AAA in 7 days time.

 

[Igurisu]

One might also ask - given the shenanigans in the US at the moment as to why the big ratings agencies haven't downgraded US gov debt right now - as opposed to people speculating that they might lose their AAA in 7 days time.

I would guess that is because the big ratings agencies are American?

 

[Charles Morgan]

The rating agencies' nationality is an irrelevance. The key test of credit quality is the credit default swap on the country and that is now out at 85bps and rising - hardly AAA territory. Normally the agencies only downgrade long after the horse has bolted, and on the occasion they do it the other way round, panic and pandemonium ensues. The problem here is that it would be an elective default, so if you downgrade early you could do immense damage and still look a fool if a deal is done - the agencies don't like being a proxy for tough decisions.

However, of more moment, is the fact that there is evidently insufficient political will and commonality of purpose to grip the deficit, so that might be good grounds at some point for a notch off the rating.

 

[The G.F.P]

Where do you draw the line? Sovereign debt, mortgages, personal loans, credit card debt? Any savings can be considered a loan to a bank? So wipe out savings. Wipe out pension funds?

If creditors don't trust debtors then they stop supplying credit.

Would you put your savings into NS&I certificates if you thought UK gov was about to write off all debt including those certs?

ive got money in 4 places

building society - i get virtually no interest on that

premium bonds - ive got enough to buy a very nice CL55 AMG and have made £250 in 4 years

gold & silver - again ive got enough for a very very nice CL55 AMG, in the last 3 months alone its made me £1,500 if i were to sell it and ive only been doing this for 6 months ish

a child - costs me a bloody fortune and get bugger all back

 

[The G.F.P]

It used to be within the Christian believes that no-one should lend money for profit. Hence the growth of the money lenders within the Jewish faith and the growth of Merchant Banks owned by Jewish families.
Also while over time the Jewish peoples have been persecuted by many. Nothing maybe to do with religion but maybe more to do with the fact they were owed monies and the debtors didn't want to repay.

from memory so dont sue me if im wrong ...

after WW1 the german people were skint, they borrowed money from the 'money lenders' (mainly jewish) and then over the next few years many struggled to pay it back, hitler came in and part of his manifesto was to wipe out the debts of the german people, he got in, he then killed all the 'money lenders' and or took all their stuff that even to this date much is still in vaults in good old neutral switzerland

well he did say he would wipe out their debt, slightly ott way of doing it though

as for the trillions that the usa owe, i think about $8 trillion was paid to bankers who then paid many world banks for their help and they keep stealing it by fair means or normally foul

its a fact that the federal reserve has been bankrupt since the 1960's (might be 70's)

the dollar is getting more and more devalued by the day and this is pushing up the price of gold & silver as they are tied to the dollar which is a fiat currency (not the car) and they will keep doing this until the people of the usa are skint then they will allegedly bring in the AMERO for canada, usa & mexico (pinch of salt might be required for that one)

 

[The G.F.P]

One might also ask - given the shenanigans in the US at the moment as to why the big ratings agencies haven't downgraded US gov debt right now - as opposed to people speculating that they might lose their AAA in 7 days time.

the us/uk will pump billions into never being rated AA as if they do as you probably know the interest rates go up as AAA countries get much lower rates and if we/they went AA the results would be devastating

our/their debt will just have to be restructured like greece to longer time frames and with less interest

people in the uk are only just managing to get by as the price of mortgages (death-grip) has dropped so much that people can still eat

my mate has 3 properties with a total value of say £1.0m

his mortgage on one of them was about £600 a month then the base rate dropped to 0.5% and his deal ran out and they offered him i think about a 4.5% deal but he knew that if you dont agree a deal then it defaults to 2% + base rate meaning he now gets it for 2.5% and his mortgage on that one house was down to £80 a month

so this is all well and good until the base rate goes up and then mortgages go up and when people cant absorb the 20% house fuel rise, 10% food rise, 10% car fuel riseanymore as their mortgages have started to rise the last few years will look like a picnic in comparison to what is going to happen, house repossessions at an unprecedented rate, crime soaring, unemployment rising and ever decreasing circles of doom

but hey thats just what ive read from many sources so it could all be wrong but just watch when the base rate rises and food & fuel keep rising we are all going to be knee deep

 

[Dryce]

from memory so dont sue me if im wrong ...

after WW1 the german people were skint

I think you need to look at the war reparations which are blamed for putting Germany into economic ruin after WW1.

The Jewish community became an easy target to blame for loads of things. The Nazis deliberately and systematically scapegoated and dehumanised them.

(The treatment of Germany by US, UK, and France post WW2 was a lot better than it might otherwise have been because of what happened post WW1.)

 

[Dryce]

people in the uk are only just managing to get by as the price of mortgages (death-grip) has dropped so much that people can still eat

Yes. The unspoken driver behind the base rate.

I don't think in national economic terms it's doing anything other than helping out borrowers - both retail and business - on old baserate+margin deals. So it's stopping defaults now but gathering trouble for the future as the new deals are baserate plus a higher margin.

 

[The G.F.P]

I think you need to look at the war reparations which are blamed for putting Germany into economic ruin after WW1.

The Jewish community became an easy target to blame for loads of things. The Nazis deliberately and systematically scapegoated and dehumanised them.

(The treatment of Germany by US, UK, and France post WW2 was a lot better than it might otherwise have been because of what happened post WW1.)

jewish people have had a harsh and unfair time of it for many years in many countries but yet have never done much other than work hard and get blamed for everything, strange

 

[Dryce]

jewish people have had a harsh and unfair time of it for many years in many countries but yet have never done much other than work hard and get blamed for everything, strange

I don't think it is strange. You have a separate community with a separate religion. Add in some traditional stereotyping built up over many years. Figure the community has links with other communities in other countries. Add a bit of envy. Point a finger.

Our preachy media and culture tends to annoy me but compared with other parts of the world things are relatively benign compared with half a centurey ago and half a century before that. The media and politicians tend to dampen and play down inter-community issues rather than feed off them.

The Germans were respected by a lot of people in Europe prior to WW2. I think the Holocaust has had a huge impact on people since. The 'could it have happened here?' question haunts us more than we realise.

 

[clever dicky]

So in your world no one would build houses, no one would build hosptitals, universities or anything else, because without investment and reward no one will take the risk
If you don't wish to promote "capitalism" or whatever label you wish to give it what do you want? It all sounds a bit wishy washy to me.
The only countries I can think of who have adopted this anti capitalism all folded up with an array of problems ranging from rampant corruption at the top to wide spread ciminality and dissatisfaction from "the people" about poor living standards and lack of personal freedom and expression.
Personally I think those protesting about having to pay something not even close to the market value to gain a p155 poor nothing degree from often second rate institutions are pretty stupid, what they should be doing is seeking gainful employment rather than avoiding the real world at our expense.
Role on the revolution, where we get rid of central control, cut taxes and public spending and expect those who can to support themselves.

I almost agree with your last comments but your totally wrong in the first part. I never said, and neither do I agree that nothing would get built or people would not work. But that's the point. People would 'work' (there's that word again) and they would do so because there would of course be a need to. When ever this suggestion is made there always seems to be the reply nothing would get done. Well we're here aren't we. In a civilised society that has only had a stock market for say a hundred years. Yet we have only just moved from mud huts in the last couple of hundred years, yet still managed to build very grand buildings that go back centuries. So we CAN survive with out vast profits and greed. Of course capital is needed for projects especially large ones and that's where another culture betters are own. Many cultures like Mormons, asian and Indians club together and work together to achieve these. The west's answer is to get a bigger mortgage and give a large profit to someone. This is where we get house price inflation. Where the inflated supposed value is sucked away from the local economy (not added to it). From those that have to work longer and harder to achieve it.

We can also build structures like hospitals, schools and social housing without obscene pfi agreements, and we could, without meddling from a government build our own homes to live in. And we would pay for the materials by ? ? ? yes, working.

Its where you get Companies, charging for zero contribution that are a drain, i.e. investment, law, loans, fines, advisor's, management, and of course are favourite Gov. quango's and I'm sure a thousand others. How much do all the staff and all their costs, salaries, buildings etc. all add up to ?

The last dept. in the education industry I worked in, spent 11 (eleven ) million on one building that was meant for state of the art research. Most of that money spent was putting stuff right. Architects were never around when needed, vegas holidays, cheap shoddy materials, bad designs and so on. Yet at about the same time I saw a program about a new school built in the midlands somewhere that had state of the art everything, from canteens, libraries to IT centres, playgrounds, sports centres and even a pool. And yet it cost just two million more than my one building I was in.

Ok two different areas but you get the picture.

Its those that suck out from the system without putting a fair bit back is what I'm talking about. Those that profit for little in return. I'm sure we can all think of a few, but I certainly wouldn't blame jewish people for starting it.

 

[mercalot]

We do not manufacture anything. Unless we start to act like the French by buying French products we have no chance (look after your own). Export is minimal and the only strength we had was banking. I cannot see any future unless we are prepared to pay more and work for less. Some proffesions have an ludicrouse expected salary (football is a joke) and some have a salary that does not do anything apart from drain the society Lawyers Judges etc. We have lost the plot and have an amazingly easy lifestyle that does not reflect on our production out put. Our economy for years has been going around in a washing machine around and around in itself what do we really expect it was an ever decreasing circle. We need to take drastic action to our personal interests and spend less time trying to help people that are realisticaly unhelpable because of strong cultures. In the UK we have religous problems and we have lived with it for hundreds of years. How can we expect to change people in some countries in only 10's of years. It all apears idealistic to bring the world together at once which would be fantastic but that it not likely to happen in the next 400 years. People need to find their own way. What seems to be miss treatment to us now was the rule of thumb 200 years ago. we are moving too fast and forcing our idealistic lives to all. The fact is if China comes to full strength the world will not be able to support their possible food needs. We cannot all be millionairs and we need to face reality. It may not be in my lifetime but i can gaurantee that there will be far tougher times in the future. Best thing to do is buy a farm on an island and grow your own food and take life for what it is.
Last comment bring back the death penalty it is the best thing I can think of to get rid of people that serve no purpose (3 strikes and your out, give them five strikes and there is no mistake). Sorry for my comments if they offend some members but we are so blinded by our own personal positions and only looking to the time of of our retirement. I have no children but i fear for their future (Mad max springs to mind, it will happen - some day).

 

[crockers]

As a mediaeval historian by degree, the embrace of usury by the Christian west is one of the most interesting and certainly relevant issues in the economic development of the west.

Jews generally ended up as moneylenders as they were not allowed to own land and their involvement in certain trades that supplied the money they could lend. Pogroms may have had their roots in the usual resentment of moneylenders and opportunism (if you killed them, repayment became optional) but also good old fashioned outbreaks at the time of crusades etc.

The Liebeskind Museum of German Jewish life in Berlin is well worth a visit, the history of that sad community being a clear one of vile discrimination and brutalisation for a long time.

Went to the Jewish museum in Berlin. Yes it is very fascinating. I was slightly amazed at how little there was about the holocaust.

 

[clever dicky]

A friend of mines son went to see the war graves and sights of the holocaust. Not sure which bit now exactly but he was shocked to see a plaque, and I'm sorry for not remembering what it was exactly, perhaps someone knows, but something like 'In honour of the people of the EU that fought against fascisim '

Who knows, perhaps in a few centuries it will all be forgotten. (Or the British will take the blame again)

 

[snoop51]

Went to the Jewish museum in Berlin. Yes it is very fascinating. I was slightly amazed at how little there was about the holocaust.

A friend of mines son went to see the war graves and sights of the holocaust. Not sure which bit now exactly but he was shocked to see a plaque, and I'm sorry for not remembering what it was exactly, perhaps someone knows, but something like 'In honour of the people of the EU that fought against fascisim '

Who knows, perhaps in a few centuries it will all be forgotten. (Or the British will take the blame again)

I used to be posted to Hohne in Northern Germany. The camp was next door to Belsen concentration camp the building I lived in used to house the SS guards for the camp. I visited Belsen several times during my time there, very, very sobering to walk around. A place I would recommend visiting if you wish to know the true horrors committed during WW2.

 

[blondebier]

Scary stuff.

I saw this recently : US debt problem visualized: Debt stacked in 100 dollar bills

I'm not sure if it puts it into perspective or not. Almost seems unbelievable...

 

[The G.F.P]

i listen to a lot of USA radio (KABC in LA & Alex Jones in Texas) and alex was saying even if the whole population of the usa paid 100% tax on their wages (as in work for nothing and give their entire wage to the government) for a decade it would still not even it out

another stat was the usa pays more in debt repayments & interest a year then they do on their entire spending on everything else