Up to £1.34 a mile road charges

[Thmsshaun]

Drivers could pay up to £1.34 a mile in road charges being considered as a replacement for fuel tax, the Government admitted today.

Transport Secretary Alistair Darling said that change was essential if Britain was to avoid "LA-style gridlock''.

Under the proposals, all cars and lorries would have to be fitted with a "black box'' which would track their journeys via a satellite system.

A feasibility study carried out last year suggested that charges could range from 2p a mile on rural roads to £1.34 a mile for peak time journeys on the country's busiest roads and motorways.

Although the system could not be introduced for at least a decade, Mr Darling said in a series of interviews with The Sunday Times, The Observer and The Independent on Sunday that decisions will have to be made in the current Parliament on whether to proceed with the scheme.

"You could dance around this for years, but every year the problem is getting worse,'' he told the Independent on Sunday.

"We have got to do everything we can during the course of this Parliament to decide whether or not we go with road pricing.''


He said that he intended to present a bill before the next general election to establish a pilot project in a large urban area, such as Greater Manchester or the West Midlands within the next five to six years.

"If we don't do anything it's pretty clear to me, when you look at all the trends, we would face complete gridlock,'' he told The Sunday Times.

"More and more cars will grind to a halt and the generations to come will curse those people of my generation who didn't do anything about it.''

Mr Darling - who will set out his thinking in a speech on Thursday to Social Market Foundation - acknowledged that he would need to build a consensus over the course of the next Parliament if the scheme was to win public acceptance.

"We've got to take the British people with us,'' he said.

He emphasised the the new charges would replace fuel tax - dramatically cutting the price of petrol - and also, possibly, road tax.

"You are certainly not talking about a charge on top of another charge. You can't have both. this would be a completely different concept, a completely different way of doing things,'' he said.

Although road-pricing schemes operate on some motorways in America and the Australia, Mr Darling said that "nothing on this scale has ever been attempted''.

However, with satellite navigation kits now "fitted almost as standard'' on top of the range cars, the technology was becoming increasingly widely available.

 

[GRAV888]

In the case of my lorries, I get paid £1.10 per mile for most jobs, so that would put me out of business

 

[GrahamC230K]

Probably easier to scam out of paying if technology is involved!

I would need to doing 19K non-business miles a year.

 

[andy_k]

sooner or later it's going to happen because, putting it bluntly there are too many cars on the road. Every year the number of car owners increases, the population increases, the number of cars each family owns increases and as a rule the age at which we get to own our first car decreases.

We all use the car for non essential journeys such as just nipping to the local shops when we could easily walk although it would take a little longer but is our time really that precious?. We drive 2 miles in to the local town centre and complain that there is nowhere to park when we could just as easily catch a bus etc etc etc.

Road space and fossil fuel are both finite resources and if we can't be trusted to use them responsibly then it's inevitable somebody else is going to start restricting it for us.

Sooner or later it will be neccessary to restrict ownership maybe to one car per family or if more drastic restrictions are needed perhaps we will have to apply for the right to own a car based on our needs.

Sad but true, the right to automatic car ownership will eventually have to be taken away from us or the temptation to use it drastically reduced.

Andy

 

[scotth_uk]

Drop road tax, and put another 5p a litre on fuel. People who dont drive are covered and the rest pay as they go.

 

[Dieter]

Hi,

Why not get all the untaxed/un-insured/non-MOT'd/ un-licensed drivers etc. off the road first and see how bad the problem is then?

This high tech expensive system will be error prone and those who couldn't give a toss (see above) will flout the system anyway.

Might set up selling Faraday cages?

If you don't like this scheme or, better still, have alternative suggestions e-mail Alistair Darling:

[email protected]

Cheers,

 

[PJH]

Drop road tax, and put another 5p a litre on fuel. People who dont drive are covered and the rest pay as they go.

I think that would be the easiest system to administer. It also means the foreign drivers pay to use UK roads.
A disadvantage of tax free fuel is that when there is a world crisis and the
crude oil price doubles, the price at the pump would have to double too.
I can't see that 10 million or more vehicles transmitting there where abouts every few minutes would run smoothly at all.
Let's hide in the M25 tunnels.

 

[Robbo]

I think this is way too complex and expensive to administer. Surely by simply scrapping road tax and putting more on fuel you wil achieve a very similar result. You will also encourage people to drive low emission vehicles as well hence satisfying the green lobby.

Just think of the uproar and anger that the proposed system will cause when ther are mistakes and people get charged for journeys they didnt do. Also there will be people who manage to fiddle the system, and the system will need to be policed.

 

[kikkthecat]

I think we've heard all this before, the difference now is they are actualy talking of a trial.
But this is one system that is all but guaranteed to empty the british roads.
Not because people wont pay, many will, and if it's sold to the public as doing away with road tax and fuel duty the majority are going to be shouting "Yes Please".
But with this technology (already proven in sat nav systems) not only will they know where your car
is at any given moment, they will also know exactly what speed it's travelling at.

Monthly bill, fines, accumulated points and driving bans all arriving in the same post,
possibly even in the same envelope ?????

Everybody speeds at some point, intentionally or not and it wont take long for the people monitoring
this system to realise what they can actually use it for. I dont think it would take any more
than 6 months to ban 90% of all drivers in this country.

Can just one person on this forum (or any other) put their hand on their heart and say they have NEVER exceeded a speed limit ?

 

[andy_k]

Can just one person on this forum (or any other) put their hand on their heart and say they have NEVER exceeded a speed limit ?

I agree that currently nobody can........

but ask the same question in a few years time when the same satellite technology we are talking about here is used to limit your speed, control your distance from the vehicle in front and if neccessary apply the brakes in an emergency or if the "powers that be" decide the vehicle needs to be stopped.

I think you'll get a different answer then


Andy

 

[fatherpierre]

It would take one brave government to impliment that.

That would be one hell of a vote loser with the opposition cashing in by opposing it, and then (probably) introducing it anyway.

An easier way of reducing the cars on the roads is by raising the minimum age of the new driver to 21 and stopping all over 70s from driving............

Also, why not ban drink drivers for life along with people who have caused death by dangerous driving?

 

[marc777]

Why not get all the untaxed/un-insured/non-MOT'd/ un-licensed drivers etc. off the road first and see how bad the problem is then?

I said the very same - it would be a start - they don't deserve to be on the road.

 

[saorbust]

Interesting debate this - but I think Mr Darling has missed the point completely.

Congestion and so forth is all a symptom, but what is the root cause ? Andy_K hinted at this when he mentioned 2 mile trips for a pint of milk, but I'd hope no one has to use the motorway for that.

I do over 35,000 miles a year - and all of its for business. Perhaps my employer should be given incentives to enable me to work from home, or so forth. But wait - they do !! I just have to visit client in person sometimes.

Road Hauliers travel the country filling our supermarket shelves with a seemingly unlimited supply of fresh produce, etc. The food is fresh, specially selected and comes straight to our nearest store. Anyone notice that supermarkets no longer have a large stock ? Blame just in time deliveries etc (and if you can't think of that - remember how quickly the shelves emptied out from the block the petrol pump strike).

Fundamentally it boils down to this - no sane person wants to spend 3-4 hours a day in a traffic jam. I can get to work in 1hr 20 minutes if the traffic is good - 4 hours if its bad. Thats my life wasted sitting in a car when I could be at home with the family or with friends, etc.

If a reasonable reliable cost effective means of achieving this is possible - them I'm interested. And no the train service doesn't work yet (although cross rail could make a real difference). But the policy of the government to tax the motorist to death is short sighted and shows a real lack of understanding of the root cause of congestion, and / or a lack of williness to address it.

& debate......

 

[andy_k]

there is another way of looking at this,

we all want everyone off the road except us.... whether they are unlicenced, untaxed been banned for drink driving etc (perhaps we should extend that ban to everyone that has lost their licence at some stage?). Maybe introduce compulsory re-testing every two years with anyone that fails having to wait 18 months before being allowed to re-apply? Licence suspension and a compulsory re-test if you commit any moving offence or are involved in an accident?.

but....

as I said before we are dealing with a finite resource here - most estimates suggest the current reserves of oil (for that read taxable fuel") are going to run out if not in this generation then certainly the next - figures vary from 10 years to 60 but they all agree on the fact that it running out fast. so, do we start to preserve it now (too little too late) by removing or heavily taxing vehicles that are effectively eating our planet? or do we just carry on as before with our heads buried deep in the sand saying "it's somebody elses problem"?

I'm as guilty as anyone (except I seldom use the car to go to the local shops) and the reasons I've not switched to a cheaper more environmentally friendly car are probably the same as everyone else will offer when they justify their vehicle ownership. Perhaps we should have cars allocated on a "need" basis, with points for location, children, mileage etc etc so that single people living and working in towns and cities get "urban transport" and those with large familes or living in remote areas get vehicles suited to their needs.

As more companies embrace technology the need for the 35,000 mile a year rep should dissapear - why not use internet conferencing software? it's only tradition that says you have to meet in public?

To the governments of the world this also represents a huge problem - the amount of global income generated by oil could be running out - I think many of them will take the opportunity to tax it to death in order to get in on the act and stock their bank accounts

Andy

 

[nick mercedes]

It's a new labour tax on movement...

With the added bonus of our nosey/paranoid government being able to see where we've been/are, standby for some fool politician to start telling us about the anti terrorism benefits.

Given that almost everything in any shop got there by lorries/vans on motorways, and that everyone has to drive to work due to non-existant public transport outside of London, how much will people have to be paid just to cover the added costs?

They'll be a mass exodus to France/Spain...

 

[Satch]

Nobody should find any of this surprising. It has been part of their game plan for years but activley suppressed until after the election

http://mbclub.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=8840&highlight=road+pricing

Their dream is akin to a giant SPECS camera network across the country. Lots of technology providers & consultants are drooling at the prospect, insurance companies get to charge by driver behaviour, the Treasury will get more cash because along with premium road pricing will come more Congestion Zones.

Road Safety will be trumpeted as will control of CO2 & pollution. Oh yes traffic congestion might be reduced, but the price to be paid by some will be huge.

Does anybody seriously think this is not going to be used for speed enforcement as well? Just as well the system is changing so that "minor" offences will only carry a fiscal penalty so we can all keep on paying. As with the Congestion charge they will rely on a level of non-compliance to generate cash.

In reality all concerned know that a National system will be unworkable even in the medium term so after lots of smoke and mirrors and having "listened" the scheme will be "scaled back".

Translation: You ARE going to get stuffed for premium pricing on Motorways and major A roads. Road Tax WILL NOT GO nor the excessive rates of tax on fuel be reduced to any compensating degree because that would be "unfair on others".

However the country will eventually be carpeted with some form of system that will enable speed control.

No doubt it will prevent congestion somewhere but I would prefer not to feel like the duped, tagged & exploited victim of the dull evil of a greedy Big Government in the process.


EDIT

For thos e thinking of fleeing to Europe, forget it. Note this is above link. (No I am not a Conspiracy Theorist. There is nothing theoretical about this. It is already with us. )

But to a some extent we are already there and this fresh horror really shows how New Labour control freakery wants to get into all aspects of life.

When Directive 2002/85/EC is fully implemented sometime between 2005 and 2008 limiters will be required by EC law to be fitted to all passenger vehicles with more than eight passenger seats and all goods vehicles with a maximum mass exceeding 3.5 tonnes.

Limiters will have to be set at 100kmh, and to restrict speed to 90kmh, respectively. Only a short step to speed limiters on cars and ooh, lets have a GPS based system to monitor that and monitor/collect all those lovely road tolls as well. Oh yes, minor benefit is that we can of course track you anywhere you go in the UK or Europe for that matter.

Not heard about that EU Directive? Well, you should have been paying attention to all those very important consultation documents and not playing with your cars you silly, silly children. We told you all about it. You did not listen. Too late to moan now. It is EU law. Nothing we can do about it.

Actually the UK was alone in voting against this stupidity, but we ceded sovereignty to Brussels in these matters long ago so UK Government is reduced to playing for time by pratting around with transitional rules and hoping nobody notices before the next election.

 

[PJH]

London congestition should have been dropping due to a lower population.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/4613233.stm

Using the following figures
85p per litre, 80% tax ? relates to 68p tax per litre
my 12,000 per annum @ 28mpg equals £1,324,28p fuel tax +£165 road tax.
That's 12.4p per mile paid in tax.

You can be sure that Mr Darling's figures will be calculated on less than 12,000 miles a year.

Another few points:-
Congestition is usually just ONE direction at a time, ie into or outof Town/City.
Serveral of us on this forum work shifts so rarely travel WITH the congestition.
So would the people travelling in the opposite direction to the majority be charged at the same higher rate? Why should I pay a high rate per mile when MY side of the road is comparatively empty.
I'm sure we have all been on motorways when they are very busy, but still doing 60+ mph. Why be charged when traffic is flowing so well ?
How can the road be congested at 60+ mph ?

 

[rees_A]

I don't agree with any controls on driving or car ownership. If you can afford to buy/run a car, then you should be able to make a choice as to the model you want. If what we are saying is that their is an increase in car ownership that is rising too quickly for the infrastructure to cope with, perhaps we should consider closing our borders to all immigrants as we obviously DO NOT have the infrastructure to accomodate any more. Then car ownership will only be in direct proportion to the native population so will not increase beyond our infrastructure capability. Also, we should look at repatriating some of our existing immigrants to ease the strain....IF WE DO NOT HAVE THE INFRASTRUCTURE IN PLACE, THEN WE NEED TO LOOK AT THE REASONS WHY, NOT TAX EXISTING CITIZENS WHO WERE BORN HERE AND ARE HARD WORKING AND CANNOT/WILL NOT PUT UP WITH ANY FURTHER TAXES!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Thmsshaun]

We need the car.

Thankfully I work very close to home and it is often quicker to use pedal power than to drive. With these road charges it would sure put me off from making an unimportant journeys.

For some though this is not possible.

Possible Causes:

Previously we were all mining and industrial towns. Now what do we have commuter towns.

Jobs just simply are not where we live so we have to use the car. Industrial estate out of town etc. No huses near. Before cars were popular we could all work probably within 10minutes of our house and any facilities would be round where we live. Local shops etc not out of town shopping centres and supermarkets. All of which are the route cause of putting more traffic onto the road.

Up to £1.34 a Mile When like Grav Says he get about £1.10 a mile Grav would probably need in the regions of an 80ppm price hike even if road and fuel duty were abolished. Think this would be one secured route to recession.

Enough from me hope Ive bought some interesting points and sparked a little more debate.

 

[andy_k]

I don't agree with any controls on driving or car ownership. If you can afford to buy/run a car, then you should be able to make a choice as to the model you want. If what we are saying is that their is an increase in car ownership that is rising too quickly for the infrastructure to cope with, perhaps we should consider closing our borders to all immigrants as we obviously DO NOT have the infrastructure to accomodate any more. Then car ownership will only be in direct proportion to the native population so will not increase beyond our infrastructure capability. Also, we should look at repatriating some of our existing immigrants to ease the strain....IF WE DO NOT HAVE THE INFRASTRUCTURE IN PLACE, THEN WE NEED TO LOOK AT THE REASONS WHY, NOT TAX EXISTING CITIZENS WHO WERE BORN HERE AND ARE HARD WORKING AND CANNOT/WILL NOT PUT UP WITH ANY FURTHER TAXES!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You don't agree with any controls on driving or ownership which would give anybody the right to drive with no licence, insurance, MoT etc. Or you just believe that if YOU can afford it it's OK?It's not just our infrastructure we should be worrying about is it?

What happens when the oil runs out? it's the planet's infrastructure we should be concerned about there will come a point where it can no longer continue to support the people that are living off it.

Should we repatriate every single immigrant whether they are here working and paying taxes or just those you don't like - without our immigrant workers the country would grind to a halt. What about scond generation immigrants who were born here? I am old enough to remember the sixties and seventies when Indian and Pakistani families were rare and I remember the loathsome way they were treated and how they were subjected to disgusting racial abuse which sounded very much like your "send them home" crap. I remember when the Ugandan Asians were kicked out of their homeland by Idi Amin and many settled here These people are now respected business people and people we rely on every day Doctors, dentists etc etc - should we send them home as well so that you can drive in peace?

I appreciate this has gone a little off topic but i find rees_A's narrow minded BNP inspired drivel more than just mildly offensive.

I'd suggest that anybody who cannot or will not pay any more tax packs their bags and joins Paul Daniels and Frank Bruno who promised 9 years ago they'd be on the first plane out of the country if a Labour government ever got elected.

Sooner or later we will have our use of vehicles curtailed. It's not a case of if but when it happens. These methods currently being discussed are going to take at least 10 years before they are workable. Think how much has changed in the last 10 years and maybe then you will begin to comprehend just how simple these measures will be and how common place they will be as the technology surrounding us continues to improve.

Andy