USA crisis.

Discussion in 'OT (OFF Topic) Forums' started by renault12ts, Jul 30, 2011.

  1. renault12ts

    renault12ts MB Club Veteran

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    A good account of what the US Gov. is getting up to. You couldn't make it up:

    SPIEGEL ONLINE
    07/29/2011 03:35 PM
    US Debt Debate
    Annihilating Democracy with the Tea Party

    A Commentary by Gregor Peter Schmitz in Washington

    Democracy depends on compromise and the American government depends on all branches working together. The Tea Party movement shuns both, preferring instead to drive the state into bankruptcy. On principle.

    America's Founding Fathers thought of everything. They wanted to establish several centers of power in Washington rather than just one. They wanted the occupant of the White House to be strong, but Congress was to have the power to check that strength. The friction between Capitol Hill and the White House -- a product of this system of checks and balances -- was to make the decisions of America's leaders cleverer, wiser and better.

    But the system only works when all branches of government play the role designed for them. For almost 235 years, the system worked reasonably well. But, about a year ago, things started to go wrong in the US capital; the system began to melt down. The friction is no longer propelling the country to greatness, rather it is hastening its decline. Members of the right-wing conservative Tea Party movement, which is well represented in Congress since the last elections, want friction. But at the expense of results.

    These lawmakers no longer view themselves as part of the political system. Instead, they identify themselves as its enemy. They see themselves as outsiders, even as they sit in Congress and enjoy the kinds of job benefits they would like to strip from their fellow Americans.

    All Take, No Give

    They are, as has become clear during the ongoing debt debate, calling the entire system into question. And they have turned the system of checks and balances into a tool of obstruction.

    Experts agree that America can only reduce its vast mountain of debt by both cutting expenditures and raising taxes -- at least a little. Tea Party politicians are eager to slash spending, but they are adamantly opposed to allowing the government to increase tax revenues. Their refusal to compromise has led economists to warn of " Armageddon" should the US become insolvent.

    In response to such "fear mongering," the Tea Party group Campaign for Liberty wrote on its blog that, even if the debt ceiling isn't raised, "the sun will still rise in the East and set in the West, as it has for all time." What, after all, do the experts know?

    As a result, America has come to a standstill. The branches of government were designed to both exercise and yield power. More than anything, though, they are supposed to work together. But working together would appear to be contrary to the Tea Party movement's creed. Members aren't interested in making Washington better, they want to annihilate it. Their Holy Grail is a stripped down state.

    President Barack Obama wants to improve schools, whereas the Tea Party would prefer to see many state-run schools eliminated. Obama wants to invest in clean energy; the Tea Party denies the existence of climate change. The president wants to make trillions in cuts; but the Tea Party refuses to approve a dollar more in taxes, even on the very rich.

    Unbending Principles

    Indeed, after talks with Republican leaders broke down last Friday, a visibly annoyed Obama asked reporters: "Can they say yes to anything?" The answer is no, and the blame lies with the new system.

    It used to be that politicians would campaign on anti-Washington platforms, but would still be proud of being in Congress once elected. But the representatives who road the Tea Party wave into Washington do things differently. As a recent article in the New York Times noted, several of them actually live and sleep in their offices "so as to pronounce themselves detached from the culture in Washington" and then fly back to their constituencies on Thursdays. It's a matter of principle. They view themselves as being on a mission and proudly claim to not think about their re-election chances. They are focused on their principles.

    Yet, in so doing, they are betraying the principles of democracy. It is in the nature of democracy to think about re-election. It means politicians remain in touch with their voters -- and it keeps them open to compromise.

    But the Tea Party is opposed to compromise, that lubricant of all legislative bodies. They practice a form of democracy, but in its rawest, most aggressive form.

    They have, for example, repeatedly and publicly humiliated Republican Speaker of the House John Boehner. Boehner had hammered out a deal with President Obama involving $4 trillion (€2.8 trillion) in federal spending cuts, including a long-overdue reform to the overburdened social system. In return, Boehner agreed to some tax increases. It would have been a genuine reform -- a rather major one.

    The Tea Party, though, saw the deal as a betrayal. Taxes, after all, are poison according to their doctrine. It is an extremely fundamentalist doctrine, and they have used it to take the Republican party hostage.

    The Republican Party "has been infected by a faction that is more of a psychological protest than a practical, governing alternative," writes conservative New York Times columnist David Brooks. He says the movement is driven by protest reflexes and "do not accept the logic of compromise, no matter how sweet the terms."

    With its stubbornness, the Tea Party is betraying its own idols. They like to quote Ronald Reagan, famous for saying that "government is not the solution to our problems; government is the problem." But even he didn't shy away from governing. He raised taxes 11 times and upped the debt ceiling 18 times. The Republican icon spoke often about his dislike for government, but he never made it into a religion.

    Stoking Voter Ire

    The Tea Party, on the other hand, is the Congressional outgrowth of "you're either with us or against us," the maxim that former President George W. Bush espoused as he launched his "war on terror." And the movement wants to drive the state into bankruptcy, consequences be damned.

    Tea Party lawmakers themselves will ultimately have to pay the price for this strategy. Polls indicate that many Americans are put off by the radicalism of these wild new politicians and want to see a compromise reached on the debt ceiling. A majority backs a deal that includes lower expenditures and more taxes. It makes people nervous that Tea Party adherents acts as though America can choose whether or not to pay back its debts.

    Most Americans, after all, are also familiar with the Founding Fathers that the Tea Party movement is so fond of citing. And what did Jefferson, Washington, Madison and the others say when their young republic was forced to borrow money? The state, they said, had to pay its debts. On that point, they knew no compromise.

    URL:

    US Debt Debate: Annihilating Democracy with the Tea Party - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News - International

    Related SPIEGEL ONLINE links:

    Gridlock in Washington: Europe Losing Patience with US Debt Delays (07/28/2011)
    Gridlock in Washington: Europe Losing Patience with US Debt Delays - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News - International
    Debt Crisis: Europeans Urge US to Reach a Deal (07/27/2011)
    Debt Crisis: Europeans Urge US to Reach a Deal - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News - International
    The World from Berlin: Republican Weaknesses Are Obama's Greatest Strength (04/05/2011)
    The World from Berlin: Republican Weaknesses Are Obama's Greatest Strength - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News - International
    The World from Berlin: 'The US Is Holding the Whole World Hostage' (07/15/2011)
    The World from Berlin: 'The US Is Holding the Whole World Hostage' - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News - International


    © SPIEGEL ONLINE 2011
     
  2. r.v.s.mechanics

    r.v.s.mechanics New Member

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    why on earth would we want to know all this crap bit of spamming i think
     
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  3. OP
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    renault12ts

    renault12ts MB Club Veteran

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    Are you stupid? Don't you know what's happening? How dare you say I am spamming. When you understand grammar and punctuation...then by all means have a go.

    And speak for yourself, don't assume after 3 days you speak for anyone else on here.
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2011
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  4. Druk

    Druk MB Enthusiast

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    ^ Indeed.:mad: A public retraction is in order methinks.
     
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  5. balge

    balge Active Member

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    Well, the journo obviously doesn't like the 'tea party', but I'm not sure I follow his argument that capping government spending will bankrupt America?:confused:
     
  6. OP
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    renault12ts

    renault12ts MB Club Veteran

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    The problem arises Wednesday if the USA cannot pay their way. The effects will be immediate and far reaching...it will effect us here...making 2008-09 look like loose change in comparison.
     
  7. SPX

    SPX MB Club Veteran

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    An interesting read that, Renault12ts.

    I certainly think America is in the final throes of being the No.1 in the world. Looking at these nutters in the Tea Party, that thought will become reality sooner rather than later...
     
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  8. Dieselman

    Dieselman Banned

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    I'm outside working and even that well known bastion of current affairs, Radio 1 is covering the US Debt situation in it's News bulletins....It must be bad...

    3 days to melt down. They really have run out of money.
     
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  9. OP
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    renault12ts

    renault12ts MB Club Veteran

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    Think about it this way...if the USA lose their triple A rating, interest rates will rise...starting to see it now.
     
  10. Dieselman

    Dieselman Banned

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    Not too bad if you are in credit as opposed to debt.
     
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  11. OP
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    renault12ts

    renault12ts MB Club Veteran

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    Lend'us £20...:thumb:
     
  12. Dieselman

    Dieselman Banned

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    I didn't get where I am today by lending money willy-nilly...:D
     
  13. markjay

    markjay MB Club Veteran

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    Interest rates rising is not all bad news. House prices will come down for starters. In the first place, once wealthy people have reasonable low-risk avenues to get decent return on their wealth (earned through hard work!), they might consider putting it in the bank - as they used to do before the crisis - rather than feel forced to buy more and more property for lack of better low-risk alternatives. Keeping cash in the bank these days is pure madness. Then, higher interest rates will see less people taking out mortgages - and much lower house prices for cash buyers.

    I am well aware that low interest rates are good for small business (I run one myself), but do keep in mind that it also has some very bad effects as above.

    Said that, I am not wishing for the American economy to collapse... it was just a foot note on the Interest rates issue.
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2011
  14. markjay

    markjay MB Club Veteran

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    As for the US... the way I see it this really a political issue. Here in the UK, the Tories came into power on an agenda of cuts, while Labour lost with a manifesto of increased spending ('he wants to take 6 billion out of the economy...'). So David Cameron has no real problem when implementing cuts - after all this is what he said he'll do.

    In the US the Democrat Obama was elected on a manifest of social welfare, which now does not seem possible - so he has a very tough choice, either he goes ahead with his policies and bankrupts the US, or accepts that public spending must come down and loose his electorate.

    This is, anyway, my understanding of the situation.

    As for taxation, it is not just about rich people not wanting to pay more tax - it is well known that increasing taxation can throttle growth and bring in less revenue overall, so there is a strong practical argument here that goes beyond ideology.
     
  15. r.v.s.mechanics

    r.v.s.mechanics New Member

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    what I'm really saying is we've got enough going on in our own country why would we want to know about USA ?
     
  16. Howard

    Howard MB Club Veteran

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    Errrr ..... because it will affect us indirectly ?
     
  17. markjay

    markjay MB Club Veteran

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    Well, some of us do, and some don't.. this thread is clearly for those of us who do. No offence to anyone, but personally I don't read the F1-related posts...
     
  18. OP
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    renault12ts

    renault12ts MB Club Veteran

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    The problem H, is that the effect will be direct...starting next week with the inter bank lending rates...credit crunch part 2.
     
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  19. OP
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    renault12ts

    renault12ts MB Club Veteran

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    What you are saying is you've buried your head in the sand, you weren't aware there was something going on and now believe you can comment on it from a position of ignorance. Is that a fair summary?
     
  20. Palfrem

    Palfrem MB Enthusiast

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    I have a few folding Dollars and some change left over from a trip.

    Will it help if I send to BHO?
     
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