Use of 'summer' tyres below 7 degrees

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From personal experience, winter tyres on cold dry roads tend to squirm more than summers but ultimately there is little difference in performance. On a cold damp winter's morning, with salt on the roads, winters definitely perform better, out braking and out cornering summer tyres. On snow, no comparison, winter tyres are a revelation!
 
Another reason why winter tyres for me are indispensable from November to March, even in a relatively mild Belgian climate, is the unpredictability of the winter weather. While the conditions in the morning may well me 7 degrees and clear roads, very often the temperature drops and snow/sleat will fall later in the day, and conditions may change radically day to day. So, the fact that a summer tyre could cope with a cold dry road but would leave it very dangerous in the changed conditions the very next day, or even same day, makes it a no-brainer to put winter tyres on, even if this means trading off a little bit of dry road performance.
 
I think the big question for many is not whether winter tyres work, we all know they do... but for people who can't have two sets of tyres (for a variety of reasons - space, costs, car ownership etc), which is the best bet for all-year-round motoring - summer tyres, winter tyres, or all-weather tyres?

The AA website says winter tyres all year round are the second best thing next to swapping tyres twice a year, but I suspect that the real answer depends on where you live in terms of number of cold/snowy days in a year, and therefore the answer might be very different for people living Kent to those living in Scotland.

Furthermore, driving habits are also important, as people who do not travel very early in the morning, and have the leisure of not venturing out at all when the weather is bad (retired people, for example), might find that they very very rarely benefit from winter tyres - e.g. when caught-out by a sudden and unpredictable snow storm - which means that having them on the car all year round, as the AA recommends, will actually be counter-productive.

So I suspect that there is no 'one size fits all' answer for this question.
 
Much depends on very local factors. We live in the south of england approx 300metres from the nearest gritted road but there is an incline to get to it. Last year the SLK failed miserably to make it even with a light covering of snow so this year winter tyres are going on next week. The CLK is not used much in winter because I bring the 124 back from Italy. It is running kleber Quadraxer all season tyres and also seems to cope quite easily in the snow.
 
Back to Basics

When dealing with the complex issues presented by modern motoring its all too easy to lose sight of the basic principles involved.
1 the motor car's purpose is to get you from A to B [ FUNDAMENTAL] for this TRACTION is required. this is the process where the chemical energy of fossil fuels - converted to mechanic energy by combustion, is transferred to the wheels to propel the car forward---- everything else is secondary [ safety is important but secondary to this basic principle of moving forwards---extrapolated from the fact that to achieve 100% safety its best to leave the car in the garage] The issues of stopping and going round corners effectively can only be addressed once you are moving forwards
Winter tyres facilitate this basic principle in cold conditions--- period. Summer tyres do not.

2. In the same vein for a car to function the engine has got to start! For that to occur the battery must be in good condition, They wear out after 4-5 years REPLACE THEM at the first sign of trouble!

We seem to live in an age where people are constantly diverted by muddled thinking from perceiving a few fundamental truths. ;)
 
Err... I beg to differ.

My utmost priority is safety, not forward motion. If I can not move forward safely, I'd rather stay where I am...

But the real answer is that (like you have in fact hinted) it is actually a compromise between travel and safety. We want to travel, but not at all cost... and the key question is how safe is safe enough?

As an example, few will disagree that the S-Class provides better occupant protection that the A-Class. Does it mean that A-Class cars should be declared unroadworthy and removed from public roads? Or do we say that the A-Class is not as safe as a C-Class, but it is safe enough to be allowed on the road?

The same applies to tyres. Is the use of summer tyres in winter unsafe to the extent that it should not be permitted at all, or is it not as safe as winter tyres, but it is safe enough? The same argument also goes vice versa - is the use of winter tyres all year round safe enough, even though they are less safe above 7 degrees when compared to summer tyres?

The fact that someone comes-up with a new tyre design better/safer (winter/summer or otherwise) does raise the bar, and it is obviously a good thing, but at the same time the question is does it render all previous tyre designs unsafe?

So again, to my mind the question is not whether winter tyres perform better in the winter, but are summer tyres safe enough for all year round use?

And going back to the original point - in the past 15 years I have always driven on summer tyres and not once got stranded. Could be luck, or the fact the none of my cars had ultra-wide or over-inflated tyres, or just that I have the common sense (and possibility) to stay home when the weather is bad. But empirically - based on my own experience, regarding my own circumstances - use summer tyres do not restrict my ability to travel.

I am not advocating summer tyres vs winter tyres - my point is simply that either choice is a compromise, and as such it is a very personal choice, which depends on needs and circumstances. The tyre tests are useful as they help us reach our own personal decision, but if anyone is looking at these tests trying to find a universal solution, well it will not be found in these tyre tests and at any rate I doubt that it exists.
 
Not disputing what you say but your post could be a bit misleading for the un-initiated since if you read the report in full the winter tyres outperformed the summer tyres in almost every other condition.
They only did Wet Conditions, Dry Conditions (both of which I've mentioned) and Snow and Ice (where it's a given that winter tyres are better, otherwise they'd serve no purpose whatsoever!). So which other conditions do you mean :confused:

One grey area was aquaplaning where a side-stepping grippy tread pattern instead of continuous grooves round the tyre circumference would not clear water so quickly in a straight line is fairly predicable.
It wasn't really a grey area, they were only able to test aquaplaning at 11C and said
the summer tyres performed marginally better; the only winter tyre that beat its summer counterpart was the Goodyear. Overall, though, the results were neck and neck

On dry pavement presumably grippy racing slicks would prove to be even better not to mention illegal?:doh:
Of course, but the whole point of this thread was that the What Car? test results seem to disprove the theory that below 7C the softer rubber in winter tyres offsets the difference in tread design when braking on cold but dry surfaces.

I believe the survey ...
Just being pedantic here, but these are measured test results ... not a survey.


the article's conclusion:-

Our tests prove that winter tyres offer big safety benefits over their summer equivalents – not only in snowy and icy conditions, but also in the wet when the temperature dips below 7C.
But that's not actually borne out by the test results, is it?

On dry roads at cold temps. the summer tyres were comprehensively better.

On wet roads the winter tyres were a little better at straight line braking, but not really any better when it came to handling, and marginally worse for aquaplaning.

As I've said all along, nobody is disputing that if you need to drive on actual snow/ice then winter tyres are a good thing to have.
 
Don't disagree with anything you have said. Where I think the problem is focussed is in circumstances when maintaining continuous road travel becomes vital to maintaining the countries commerce and infrastructure or emergency services. Some of us have the luxury of not venturing out in very poor weather conditions but for many they have no choice. Whether they are articulated truck drivers delivering your food to Tescos, or fuel to the filling station, teachers getting to school, doctors and nurses getting to hospital to treat the sick or simply people under pressure to get to the work place- these individuals have a pressing need to get on the roads.
Should the wearing of winter tyres be compulsory? Possibly- it makes life simpler in that the decision is taken out the individual car owners hands. As we saw last winter it only takes one vehicle not equipped for ice and snow to block an entire motorway and strand lots of vulnerable [ very young and very old] car occupants in atrocious weather conditions. I would highlight here the ubiquitous articulated lorry as a vehicle particularly unsuited for driving on snow and ice without winter tyres!! You don't of course have to buy winter tyres you can leave your car/truck in the garage during periods of cold weather=below 7C. I think in Germany the legislation is framed around ambient temperature rather than any specific calender months?? People caught with vehicles on the roads without winter tyres at temperatures below 7C run the risk of severe fines.

p s this is in reply to Markjay's post not yours Bill. I take your point that the statement that winter tyres perform better than summer tyres at low temperatures under all circumstances is incorrect.
 
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One very general comments regarding comparative tyre tests... they are all performed using new tyres.

The manufacturers themselves have test results comparing performance of new tyres with same tyres degraded by age and reduced tread depth.

However I did not see any comparative data as such... and yet most people will be driving for most of the time on used tyres, rather than new tyres.

So it would seem that we assume that performance degradation with age and tread depth reduction is identical across all brands and models, and we extrapolate to say that if a certain tyre has for example a 30% shorter braking distance than another, then this ratio will be maintained over the tyres' service life.

But this is hardly scientific.. it is really an assumption. To achieve real-world comparative figures, tyres should tested against each other at different stages of their service life, rather than just when new.


(and yes, I did study research methodology at uni, albeit many years ago... :))
 
I think in Germany the legislation is framed around ambient temperature rather than any specific calender months??
I'm pretty sure it's still based on particular months of the year ... that's the only practical way to do it really.
 
I'm pretty sure it's still based on particular months of the year ... that's the only practical way to do it really.

The rule of thumb in Germany is normally "Von O bis O" - October to Easter, basically.

Other countries actually stipulate the dates, for example in Italy it's mid-October to mid-April for areas around Val d'Aosta
 
We could easilly do it when the clocks change. That was when i was going to work it by.
 
The rule of thumb in Germany is normally "Von O bis O" - October to Easter, basically.
Mrs BTB reckons it was November to March (inclusive) in the South of Germany, but it varied depending on region. I just checked and the current situation is as follows (Grober is right, based on conditions rather than date)
It is now prohibited to use summer tyres in Germany during winter weather conditions - summer tyres are predominantly fitted to vehicles in the United Kingdom.
Winter weather conditions include black ice, snow, ice, slush and hoarfrost. Please bear in mind that these conditions may also be present even if the temperature is above 0 degrees.
German law specifies that the tyres must be winter tyres or all season tyres designed for use in wintry conditions. Suitable tyres will normally be marked 'M+S', however these can also be marked with a snow flake or snowy mountains symbol.
Motorists, whose car is equipped with summer tyres may not take the car on the road in winter weather conditions. Motorists in violation face fines of €40. If they actually obstruct traffic, the fine is €80. You may also be prevented from continuing your journey unless the tyres are changed or the weather conditions change.

Of course the difference in Germany (many parts, anyway) is that prolonged snow/ice is normal and expected in winter.
 
Mrs BTB reckons it was November to March (inclusive) in the South of Germany, but it varied depending on region.

Wouldn't surprise me at all - that was the advice given to me by the locals in Westfalia
 
The AA website said at the time that Sweden is the only country in Europe where winter tyres are mandatory based on the time of year - all other countries including Germany simply stipulate 'in winter weather conditions' as BTB 500 said.

So in theory you will not get fined for driving on a German Autobahn on summer tyres on a sunny day in January - but in practice you are not likely to find many such days...

Said that, I also seem to remember reading somewhere that the Germans were going to amend the current legislation and follow the Swedes - i.e. winter tyres mandatory during winter months regardless of road conditions - though I am not sure when (or if) this change is due.

But it is interesting to note that the German's see this as a traffic obstruction issue rather than a safety issue.
 
I was going to change to winter tyres from about Nov 1 to March 31, but given recent postings that they are only superior in the wet below about 2 degrees (not 7 degrees) then I might wait until it gets really cold. Living in the balmy south (read that whichever way you will!), we will get more wintry rain than snow....:)
 
They are calling for a ban on winter tyres in New Zealand on account of it not being cold enough for long enough......
 
They are calling for a ban on winter tyres in New Zealand on account of it not being cold enough for long enough......

No, no, you must be winding us up - they'd be mad to ban winter tyres in a place where there's no winter, wouldn't they? :doh:
 

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