VW's to Take Away?

[st13phil]

Researchers from the University of Birmingham have found keyless car entry systems could be putting millions of vehicles at risk of being stolen.

Experiments were carried out by a team from the university's School of Computer Science, with Volkswagen Group's cars shown to be most at risk. The investigators also found a second potential hack affecting vehicles made by Alfa Romeo, Citroen, Fiat, Ford, Mitsubishi, Nissan, Opel/Vauxhall, Renault and Peugeot.

More info here.

 

[flango]

No Sh*t Sherlock would never buy a keyless entry car you can be in them and away in seconds MB included.

 

[S-class]

Researchers from the University of Birmingham have found keyless car entry systems could be putting millions of vehicles at risk of being stolen.

Experiments were carried out by a team from the university's School of Computer Science, with Volkswagen Group's cars shown to be most at risk. The investigators also found a second potential hack affecting vehicles made by Alfa Romeo, Citroen, Fiat, Ford, Mitsubishi, Nissan, Opel/Vauxhall, Renault and Peugeot.

More info here.

A friend of mine has the Evoque with keyless, he went thru similar issues, they've updated his system (not sure if just software or also hardware) to make it more secure, its always going to be a cat and mouse game with car manafacturers having to keep up.

 

[Dryce]

A friend of mine has the Evoque with keyless, he went thru similar issues, they've updated his system (not sure if just software or also hardware) to make it more secure, its always going to be a cat and mouse game with car manafacturers having to keep up.

The problems being publicised are not new.

The real problem is that some of the underlying technology is now rather long in the tooth - so that means its getting weaker. The use of keyless entry and start further exposes the technology.

It's worth bearing in mind that vehicle security has in general been very effective since the mid 90s - though I think that manufacturers have become a bit complacent as a result.

 

[st13phil]

The real problem is that some of the underlying technology is now rather long in the tooth - so that means its getting weaker.

Having now read the research paper (easy enough to find online), it's not just that the underlying technology is old, but that it was badly implemented too. For example, VW chose to use just a handful of master cryptographic keys across millions of ECU's, and that those keys can be retrieved by reverse engineering the software.

 

[Doodle]

Dodgy VW software that cuts corners? Say it ain't so

 

[Deleted member 6183]

VW aren't what they were, my last one was pretty disappointing.

 

[st13phil]

No Sh*t Sherlock would never buy a keyless entry car you can be in them and away in seconds MB included.

The research in question has exposed a gaping flaw in VW's Remote Key Entry system, not just keyless systems. A different, but similarly significant, flaw was found in the RKE system used by many other manufacturers. All in all, not a glowing outcome for the automotive industry.

 

[Doodle]

Hurrah for the IR remote. Doesn't matter if its unencrypted, I defy anyone to get their scanner in the 2 inch gap between the key and the receiver!

 

[S-class]

VW aren't what they were, my last one was pretty disappointing.

What did you have any what didnt you like?

 

[Deleted member 6183]

What did you have any what didnt you like?

I don't understand the question, sorry.

 

[developer]

I don't understand the question, sorry.

What did you have, and what didn't you like?

 

[Deleted member 6183]

Ah, it was a Passat diesel, current model.
It wasn't so much that I hated it but it just wasn't great at anything.
I was doing high miles at the time and found it buzzy at higher speeds, I drove across northern Spain on fabulous roads but grew to really dislike the coarseness of it.
If I had to be positive it was good on fuel around town.

 

[Dryce]

All in all, not a glowing outcome for the automotive industry.

Some of it's sloppiness.

Some of it is down to cost.

And some down to procedure.

Good security is hard. And if it undermines reliability then it fails for other reasons. The weak part of automotive systems is that the key has to be cheap and reliable. Reliable means making the protocols work such that the key doesn't get locked out through some glitch in synchronisation. It means reduction in complexity.

As an example. Suppose you have a comples supery dupery system that adds £100 to the car and is more prone to odd synchronisation glitches because it uses a mor complex two way protocol between the car and the key. Well the car costs more and sells less or makes less money. And that sync glitch? What if that 0.01% of occasions it occurs when you're in the middle of nowhere with nohelp available for hours?

The car makers are not really idiots - they're balancing various factors and compromising all the time in their product design.

 

[Dryce]

Hurrah for the IR remote. Doesn't matter if its unencrypted, I defy anyone to get their scanner in the 2 inch gap between the key and the receiver!

IR reflects and scatters. You may beed multiple IR receivers to deal with unlocking the car when approaching from different directions or approaching the boot. It may also be blocked by smoke or condensation.

It also adds a simple denial of service (techy vandalism) option where somebody damages or blocks the receiver window on the car.

IR is more difficult to make bi-directional - which is probably what you really want to allow the car and key to establish trust.

 

[Dryce]

VW aren't what they were, my last one was pretty disappointing.

I find Golfs and Passats are rather overrated.

That said I currently have a Touareg and I do rather like it. I think by comparison they are rather underrated (ignored even).

 

[Deleted member 6183]

I find Golfs and Passats are rather overrated.

That said I currently have a Touareg and I do rather like it. I think by comparison they are rather underrated (ignored even).

They seem to do the little cars and the big stuff well but struggle in the middle ground, too much perceived quality competition maybe

Some days it seems that every other vehicle is a Transporter around here, I know of a family that have two, neither is a proper camper just a high spec minibus as far as I can tell.

 

[alzieboy]

Wife's 2005 Golf 2.0 GT TDi MK5 , has been an excellent car, only paid out for services , tyres, discs and pads, cambelt when due , has served us well

 

[S-class]

I find Golfs and Passats are rather overrated.

That said I currently have a Touareg and I do rather like it. I think by comparison they are rather underrated (ignored even).

I drove an A class and then a Golf couple of years back, didnt spend much time in either but did prefer the Golf personally at the time, maybe it was just the spec of the cars I had.

 

[TheFoX]

What would happen if you parked a number of keyless entry cars next to each other? Would there be a conflict if all the owners tried to open their cars simultaneously?

Some systems benefit the driver, such as traction control and anti lock braking, but some systems beggar belief. Entering a car should be relatively easy for the owner, and not bystanders. An owner standing near their car could inadvertently allow a third person to open the car simply because of their proximity to the car.

Also, how hard is it to press a button? I know that we want more ease of access, but there is a fine line between making things easy, to making things easy for thieves. I'd rather press a button and watch my mirrors fold in, trying the door handle to ensure the vehicle is properly locked, than assuming it is locked (you cannot try the handle to check a door is locked with keyless entry, unless you remove the keys from the proximity of the vehicle).

Our cars are often our second most expensive purchase, and manufacturers need to make sure that stealing our prized possession is as hard as possible, something manufacturers seem to place low on their list of priorities.

Mind you, you can imagine in a few years time, some yobbo will steal your car and take it for a joy ride, then once they have finished with it, it will drive itself back to your house and park up as if nothing has happened. Thank you Google.