W140 M119 siezed, help!

Discussion in 'Engine' started by ivan1983, Apr 15, 2017.

  1. ivan1983

    ivan1983 Hardcore MB Enthusiast

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    Hi All,

    Looking for a bit of help from the forum.

    I have acquired a non running W140 500SE, I was told that it was cranking but not starting.

    Anyway I now have the car, when trying to start it the starter would click but not turn the engine. I assumed it was a jammed starter so decided to pull it.

    Starter is now removed, before messing with the starter I thought I would try and turn the engine over by hand. I was turning clockwise facing the front of the car but it wouldn't budge.

    I removed all of the plugs (which look to be in ok condition) but the engine still would not budge.

    I have also removed the accessory belt so its just the engine Im trying to turn.

    Any ideas on how to get the engine to turn?

    Thanks

    Ivan
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2017
  2. brucemillar

    brucemillar MB Club Veteran

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    Car in Neutral?

    With no plugs in, you have no compression and it should turn. Assuming you are using a large bar and socket on the Crank Pulley?

    It may be worth squirting a load of Plus Gas down the bores to encourage it. If it still fails to budge with large bar and Plus Gas, I would think it is truly seized and will require stripping down to find what has seized.

    Others will be along who may suggest some other way of checking to be certain, before you go pulling the lump out. Have you had the rocker cover off?
     
  3. OP
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    ivan1983

    ivan1983 Hardcore MB Enthusiast

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    Thanks Bruce, was thinking about some penetrating fluid down the spark plug holes. Will give that a try

    Yes its in neutral ( Would this make a difference being an auto)

    Using a breaker bar as a lever ( done some timing work on other engines so have an idea of the effort required). The thing is it doesnt budge a mm

    I havent had the rocket covers off yet, would both need to come off and what am I looking for, broken guide rails?

    Trying to find some guides on resetting the timing on a M119 if its a valve stuck against a piston or something.

    Thanks

    Ivan
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2017
  4. grober

    grober MB Club Veteran

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    On reflection you merely have the world of the seller the engine wasn't seized when you bought it. Being charitable - if its been sat around a long time it may have seized in the interim since he tried it last. First thing get the cam covers off and have a look at the cams valve gear and timing chains.
    [​IMG]
    After that its heads off to check the cylinder bores pistons. :dk:
     
  5. OP
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    ivan1983

    ivan1983 Hardcore MB Enthusiast

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  6. brucemillar

    brucemillar MB Club Veteran

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    Ivan

    Am I looking at a rusty camshaft with a chomp out of it at the front end?

    Sent from my iPhone using MBClub UK
     
  7. OP
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    ivan1983

    ivan1983 Hardcore MB Enthusiast

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    Its only between the first 2 lobes that is rusty, im guessing due to the the oil filler cap letting in moisture?

    I never noticed the gouging, looks like its been attacked with an angle grinder but not on the lobes.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2017
  8. OP
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    ivan1983

    ivan1983 Hardcore MB Enthusiast

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    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2017
  9. brucemillar

    brucemillar MB Club Veteran

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    Ivan

    I can't see the pics in your last post but I'm thinking along the lines that Grober mentioned. The seller may have been a bit ambitious. The engine is rusty where it should be oily. This suggests a long period of not turning.

    (null)
     
  10. 190

    190 Hardcore MB Enthusiast

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    I didn't think the rust was of any consequence but I did think the engine looked rather too clean and dry with an unusual absence of residual oil. Was it like that when you lifted the cam covers ? If so I would wonder if it ran out of oil or suffered an oil pump failure.
     
  11. Will

    Will MB Club Veteran

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    Aren't these engines known for oil starvation to the top end through blocked tubes at the top?
     
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    ivan1983

    ivan1983 Hardcore MB Enthusiast

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    Given up on the pictures but have uploaded a few vids.

    190 you are right there does seem to be a lack of oil, there is oil but not masses of it. The dipstick shows there is plenty of oil that is dirty so its not run out but maybe an oil pump failure.

    Video of the left bank
    https://youtu.be/I1RcbA3EbnA
     
  13. OP
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    ivan1983

    ivan1983 Hardcore MB Enthusiast

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    Will I think the that happens when the oiler tubes break, they appear to be fine on this engine. They are the black tubes either side of the spark plugs.

    The engine is not at 45 degrees before TDC how difficult will it be to retime if I remover the tensioner and the cams jump?
     
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    ivan1983

    ivan1983 Hardcore MB Enthusiast

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    Video of the right bank
    https://youtu.be/_v9E5IzPczg
     
  15. grober

    grober MB Club Veteran

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    While I haven't seen marks like that on the inlet camshaft before their uniform position on the camshaft circumference and lack of apparent lobe damage would indicate some form of machining rather than damage from a loose component rattling around inside the acam cover. The oil feed pipes can give problems through leaks --they can be plastic [ in this case] or alloy but unlikely to seize the engine unless the old ones/fragments blocked an oil feed gallery. If you don't want to dismantle the engine just yet then you could try examining the pistons/bores via the plugholes with one of these cheaper endoscopes/borescopes you can plug into your phone/computer /tablet?
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/ENDOSCOPE-BORE-SCOPE-FLEXIBLE-INSPECTION-CAMERA/dp/B0034OCT44
     
  16. OP
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    ivan1983

    ivan1983 Hardcore MB Enthusiast

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    Hi Grober, I thought the marks seemed like machine work too, I acutally found an image on the net of another M119 camshaft with the same marks but cant find it now!

    I have a USB endoscope and had a look but I could only see the top of the pistions which were black ( looked like carbon deposits). I couldnt get the angle to inspect for bore damage

    I might try and lock the cams using large spanners and mole grips and release the cam tensioner....

    The chain seems very tight
     
  17. 190

    190 Hardcore MB Enthusiast

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    Right bank seems the same - remarkably clean and dry for an engine with dirty oil. If it wasn't for the fact that the engine is seized you would have to be mightily impressed by the cleanliness.

    I wonder if someone has been in there before you and done something to jam the engine.
     
  18. grober

    grober MB Club Veteran

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    Way I look at it there's 3 main ways the engine could be seized-- front , middle , end.
    The end would be flywheel/clutch/torque convertor/ transmission somehow "locked" preventing the engine from turning. The front problem with ancilliaries [eliminated]leaving the valve gear/camshafts/timing chains. [nothing obvious found like broken chains etc] The middle pistons+rods, cylinder bores, crank main bearings.
    I think to eliminate/inspect these you have now come to the point where you need to remove the engine from the car. This will have the effect of disconnecting the engine from the transmission [ rear check] and allow sump removal to inspect the crankshaft and bores from underneath[ middle check] I would tend to do this first before upsetting the timing gear simply because altho it involves more physical effort its easier to retrace your steps later should the problem turn out to be simple [ which I have to doubt] but your choice?? You have done most basic checks time to bite the engine out bullet

    ps if there is something jamming the timing chain you may not find it without removal of the front timing cover etc again alot easier with th engine out of the car.
    http://www.benzworld.org/forums/r129-sl-class/1540605-diy-m119-engine-top-end-work-1.html
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2017
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  19. OP
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    ivan1983

    ivan1983 Hardcore MB Enthusiast

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    I think you are probably right about the engine needing to come out.

    I want to get the oil pan off to look at it from underneath as you say, however it appears that the engine needs to be lifted rather than jacked to do this.

    In the meantime I have filled the cylinders with engine oil as I wont be playing with it till the weekend

    Looks like I will need to purchase a hoist...
     
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  20. brucemillar

    brucemillar MB Club Veteran

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    Ivan

    Get your hands into the sump and see if there are any lumps?

    FYI. My 300te seized. That had bent the crank. Probably down to poor previous maintenance. The sump was heavily sludged but no chunks.

    UITintedBackButtonMask@2x.png
     
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