W203 Twisted Chassis??

[skymastor]

OK.. Yes the car is properly and fully insured and I could claim through that if necessary. However, this incident occured with just myself involved, new tyres and alloys, a damp road covered in oil/diesel on a bend that I have been driving around for the past two years on a daily basis to work. In over 20 years driving accident free and without a claim, I find it hard to accept making a claim and the consequences of loosing my NCB after all these years claim free driving! I've just been an unlucky sod and feel as though I can sort this out myself and I thank everyone of you for you suggestions and comments in assisting me in this. Depending on what really is the problem thou and if the costs are too great to sort it, then I will consider claiming through my insurance.

BTW, still not worked out coba lagi.. Do you mean this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKWqx-3-ABs

;-)

 

[Moose]

I can fully understand your reluctance to claim skymastor. But, I would brace yourself if I were you. As others have iterated, it will probably be 3-4 hours just to mount the vehicle on the jig, plus bracket hire. Plus there may be additional labour to actually diagnose the problem(s). You are already up to a good few hundred pounds BEFORE you fix the problem.
Why not take the car to a bodyshop and get an estimate and expert opinion before you make a decision and spend money needlessly.

 

[graeme73s]

Hi Skymastor,
From personal experience with 911's only (not MB) to put your car on a jig will require the removal of the entire front and rear suspension. Which I would presume will mean engine gearbox and entire drive train out. That is a very big job. There are different jigs but basically (and I cannot remember which jig is the best) some are more thorough than others. Basically the jig is a reference point for all of your suspension and steering pick up points. The chassis sits on the pre determined jig for your car and all the bolts should be able to be screwed in by hand. If they can't you have a problem. I have built and had to have repaired over the years quite a number of Porsche race cars (customer cars) so I have seen this first hand. good luck, Graeme

 

[television]

Hi Skymastor,
From personal experience with 911's only (not MB) to put your car on a jig will require the removal of the entire front and rear suspension. Which I would presume will mean engine gearbox and entire drive train out. That is a very big job. There are different jigs but basically (and I cannot remember which jig is the best) some are more thorough than others. Basically the jig is a reference point for all of your suspension and steering pick up points. The chassis sits on the pre determined jig for your car and all the bolts should be able to be screwed in by hand. If they can't you have a problem. I have built and had to have repaired over the years quite a number of Porsche race cars (customer cars) so I have seen this first hand. good luck, Graeme

Hi Graeme surly the one that Draper make, the bar where can measure the diagonal points from back to the front would do in this case, if you go from back to front diagonally this would tell you all you need to know for this accident

If the diagonal sub frame mountings all line up that will only leave the sub frame its self

 

[Moose]

Well, if you are going to DIY and are on a budget...
In theory, you don't need anything more than string to check the chassis.
I watched a very good, old school panel beater do it about 30 odd years ago; vehicle on axle stands, wheels off, plumb-bob from various points and careful measurements. I can't remember what he exactly measured though.
I'm sure you could also use those B&Q lasers somehow too. Some modern jigs have laser alignment as I recall.
Whatever method, you need to know what you are doing and have an understanding of vehicle geometry.

 

[fredfloggle]

Well, if you are going to DIY and are on a budget...
In theory, you don't need anything more than string to check the chassis.
I watched a very good, old school panel beater do it about 30 odd years ago; vehicle on axle stands, wheels off, plumb-bob from various points and careful measurements. I can't remember what he exactly measured though.
I'm sure you could also use those B&Q lasers somehow too. Some modern jigs have laser alignment as I recall.
Whatever method, you need to know what you are doing and have an understanding of vehicle geometry.

Forget the B&Q laser!!

I have only once "jigged" a car and that wasn't worth proper money.

"in theory" you're right about the string though I'd like to see anyone try it - you need the car on a dead level smooth floor and be able to get it at a sensible height to attach your plumbs - I would have thought that you would want to set up two RSJ's to work off of if you can't find a nice floor.

Laying down big equipment for a living I can assure you that it isn't a task to be taken lightly - and you will need skilled help.
I can understand your reticence to claim on your insurance - you have a couple of things to consider - non-diclosure in the event that the accident comes to light (and it can happen) , and in the event that you find the shell twisted , I don't see how you are going to be able to make a claim - I fear you may be digging yourself into a hole, use your insurance, if you don't you may as well have TPF&T.

 

[Moose]

Forget the B&Q laser!!

I have only once "jigged" a car and that wasn't worth proper money.

"in theory" you're right about the string though I'd like to see anyone try it - you need the car on a dead level smooth floor and be able to get it at a sensible height to attach your plumbs - I would have thought that you would want to set up two RSJ's to work off of if you can't find a nice floor.

Laying down big equipment for a living I can assure you that it isn't a task to be taken lightly - and you will need skilled help.
I can understand your reticence to claim on your insurance - you have a couple of things to consider - non-diclosure in the event that the accident comes to light (and it can happen) , and in the event that you find the shell twisted , I don't see how you are going to be able to make a claim - I fear you may be digging yourself into a hole, use your insurance, if you don't you may as well have TPF&T.

Have to agree with all of the above. I was only pointing out what could be done if the OP really insists on a DIY diagnosis.
As my earlier post suggested: I would take the car to a good bodyshop for an initial estimate and then it will be likely to be an insurance claim. That is why we are insured after all is it not.
As a side point; I have, over the years, jigged many cars of various makes. It will be far quicker to do this than any other method but costly.
I seem to recall some garages have geometry testing equipment possibly using lasers that do not require jig mounting for diagnosis (although a jig would be likely to fix any problems).

 

[television]

Just been talking to my body shop and if you can get the data from Caraliner or autoliner then using plump drops could be done at home, and they said it is an accurate way and easy to do.

 

[fabes]

QUOTE - "In over 20 years driving accident free and without a claim, I find it hard to accept making a claim and the consequences of loosing my NCB after all these years claim free driving! "

Just chipping in - but to ask the obvious - haven't you got protected no claims discount? You won't loose a penny if so (and you should really have it after all these years - check your policy schedule)

 

[BTB 500]

haven't you got protected no claims discount? You won't loose a penny if so

Unless you change insurer in the next few years.

You will still have the NCD, but you will have made a claim (potentially a big one) ... which is likely to affect the premium you pay.

 

[Moose]

I guess the other point to mention is that if the OP either does not resolve the problem, or, attempts to diagnose the fault incorrectly (either through equipment or knowledge); then there is a significant risk that the vehicle will be left in an unroadworthy condition and may cause further issues that could be expensive and could cause injury or death!
Is it worth the loss of NCB?

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

You will still have the NCD, but you will have made a claim (potentially a big one) ... which is likely to affect the premium you pay.

My understanding too. The premium may increase (especially for own-fault claims), but is discounted at the same rate as before the accident. Net result is you pay more.

 

[skymastor]

Thanks everyone for your posts there. I do have protected NCB but I know from someone else's experience last year when they were forced to make a near on minor claim on their full NCB policy, although it was protected, they still were still to be loaded for claiming on renewal. That really does put into question having protected NCB in the 1st place! But the insures did say they would load to recoup some of the money lost, but also said that the NCB would still be good if they were to move to another company on renewal and the new company may not load because they did not loose because of the claim. Anyone know of this?

Anyhow, back to the reason for this thread. I appreciate everyones comments so many thanks for that. Next week I will make enquirers into having the problem diagnosed once and for all. I have seen some web-pages who will give a free quote for this! Lets see how it goes. When I know what the craic is and what the costs are, I will inform you all for info.

 

[skymastor]

Hi all,

Bringing this subject up again, and still waiting till I get the chance to see a repair shop in Yorkshire or Germany for them to take a look (due to work commitments!), I was told that by taking measurements of the body panel gaps and the wheel positions (damaged one compared to opposite side), you can workout if the chassis is twisted or not. I was wondering if anyone out there could comment? I've attached some photo's containing this info if anyone would like to have a stab?

Here we go...

Clues anyone?

Cheers in advance...

 

[Carrotchomper]

It looks like a crab! Those panel gaps are all over the place.

 

[Dieselman]

It looks like a crab! Those panel gaps are all over the place.

Not for a Mercedes they aren't. They have never been very good at getting tight accurate panel gaps.

Looking at the measurements I would say you don't have a twisted shell problem, just the rear wheel alignment is out.
If the rear shell was bent then the boot and rear doors would show the disparity easily.

I bet the rear n/s wheelcamber is incorrect causing the top of the wheel to be further out than it should be, and maybe the bottom to be further in.

Taking measurements off the bodywork is almost pointless as it probably isn't deadly accurate anyway.

In the first pictures how do you know you have the rule angle exactly vertical..??

As has been said a flat floor and spirit level or plumb gauge should be enough to check the camber.

I'm with NickMercedes and think the subframe is bent.

measure the subframe to body.

 

[l5foye]

I would reckon the panel gaps are within tolerance. If they are obvious to the naked eye, most can be adjusted. Most car jigs such as Caroliner do not give any measurements for panel gaps.
With MB's, any major shunt will result in distortion to the panels under and behind the back seats. I suggest removing the back seats. If there is no sign of any obvious damage, it is very unlikely the bodyshell is twisted.

 

[skymastor]

=In the first pictures how do you know you have the rule angle exactly vertical..??quote]

Good question. I measured the vertical angle using the spirit level on top of the angle as you can see in the photo. I got it as level as I could with this.

I have always felt that the camber was out, but the mechanic who fitted all the new suspension parts re-adjusted this using a spirit level block that was marked with the measurements from the opposite wheel! He reckoned it was a good way of doing it. I'm not too sure. I also too do think that the sub-frame is damaged in some way for it to be like this in the 1st place.

I really appreciate your comments fellas..

 

[Dieselman]

This is going to sound really silly but presumably one wheel has been replaced. Is it the same size and offset as the other rear one?

 

[skymastor]

Thanks for such a quick reply. Both wheels are the same size/type and in good order. That was the wheel (left rear) that hit the kerb and has had all the control/thrust arms (including bent ones) replaced and the wheel has sat like this since. After the impact it was facing forward because of the bent arms.