W210 alternative fuels

[welland99]

I am looking for a W210 estate and have been giving consideration to using biodiesel in a 320 CDI or LPG in a petrol.

My internet research suggests that it is not a good idea to use biodiesel in the 320CDI, but I can find little written about using LPG in the petrol engines.

Has anybody any experience of either of these? Would you recommend any installers or types of LPG conversion?

 

[Fredhead]

LPG is the best.

I really would not go for biodiesel (veggie oil) in a modern diesel. This was fine for the E class W124 and also the 190 series. I did a lot of internet research a year ago before buying my W210 and converting it to LPG.
Another thing against using veggie oil is that it costs over a pound a litre in the supermarket and getting used oil and refining it is a time consuming and costly past time. In fact, veg oil went up from about 30p a litre a few years ago to it's present price specifically because people were buying it in bulk for use in their cars.

An LPG conversion by a certified garage is the way to go. A quick google search will show you many garages that will do the job. I spent 1850 on my conversion and recovered the money over 14,000 miles. You may take a shade longer, as petrol prices have fallen. My car is now earning me money, and in another year will have payed for itself.

LPG is easily available all over the country. Prices range from about 40 - 50p a litre at present. It's cost is directly linked to oil prices (just as for domestic gas prices). It gives about 10-20% less mileage litre for litre versus petrol, but believe me, you will save a lot of money. You need to service the system about once every 30,000 miles and this will cost about £125 to 150 to do.

In short, I would strongly recommend LPG.

 

[welland99]

Thanks Fred. It's all very interesting. When I've found a car, I will get in touch with the garage you used as it won't be too far from me. Did n't you say i the other thread that they were in Warwickshire? I'm in Malvern, so not too far.

Do you mind if I ask some more questions?

When you did your research, did you find that any of the W210 petrol engines was more or less suitable for LPG, or are they all as suitable as each other?

Which system did you get fitted?

Did you get an auxiliary lubrication system fitted? I have discussed this already with some installers near me and a couple thought it was a good idea to prevent valve seat recession. But I could not find out for definite whether it is necessary, so it seemed like an insurance to be safe.

Is your car an estate or saloon? What type and size of tank did you get?

What fuel economy do you think you get on gas and on petrol?

 

[SilverSaloon]

if you are going for a W210 and want to run on biodiesel or veg oil, then go for an E300 rather than a E320 CDI. The E300 will run straight from veg without any mods (a few precautionary maintence helps though) whereas the CDI will be major expense and hassle and would require twin-tanking

 

[Fredhead]

Thanks Fred. It's all very interesting. When I've found a car, I will get in touch with the garage you used as it won't be too far from me. Did n't you say i the other thread that they were in Warwickshire? I'm in Malvern, so not too far.

Do you mind if I ask some more questions?

When you did your research, did you find that any of the W210 petrol engines was more or less suitable for LPG, or are they all as suitable as each other?

Which system did you get fitted?

Did you get an auxiliary lubrication system fitted? I have discussed this already with some installers near me and a couple thought it was a good idea to prevent valve seat recession. But I could not find out for definite whether it is necessary, so it seemed like an insurance to be safe.

Is your car an estate or saloon? What type and size of tank did you get?

What fuel economy do you think you get on gas and on petrol?

Hi there,
Will try to answer some of your questions.
I didn't read anywhere that a particular size of engine is better to convert than another.

There are various systems in use. Several Italian. Prinz is the usual best system I have heard of. My car is fitted with Stefanelli.

I don't know what an auxiliary lubrication system is. I would guess that I don't have one fitted.

My car is an estate (W210 E280, 1998)

My tank size is 65 litres, but it effectively uses only 53 litres before switching to petrol. I got a toroidal tank that fits into the spare wheel bay. I was supplied with a spray to fill in via the tyre valve in case of a puncture. These cans are about 10 quid each. So far, haven't had to use it. Of course, this will not work if the tyre has anything bigger than a nail in it. You can install a cylindrical tank with about 110 litre capacity, but this eats into your boot space. My usual round trip is 220 miles, so the toroidal made sense.

With lpg, I get 5miles/litre, with petrol, 6.5. However, I am a very conservative driver and if you push things, then you may get closer to 4miles per litre of lpg. I also do most mileage on the motorway (about 90% of it).

I hope this helps.

 

[popuptoaster]

http://www.tinleytech.co.uk/

very good, very helpfull and even run courses so you can become an accredited installer so you can buy the bits and fit em to your mates cars, as well as rwrite your own certificates if your insurnace company require the system checked over every year, they dont sell the cheapo crappy kits that cause problems either.

 

[welland99]

Security of upright LPG tank in W210 estate

Hi there,
My car is an estate (W210 E280, 1998)

Fred,
Thanks for all the details you have posted. Your posts have given me renewed interest in getting a petrol W210 estate then getting it converted to LPG until I just rang Green conversions in Warwickshire. They were recommended on another thread by somebody who had their E280 converted last year.

Although they told me that the engine was an excellent candidate to run on LPG, they were unhappy with the upright tank arrangement in the spare wheel well. They said that it is impossible to secure the tank well enough to comply with the necessary tank security specifications.

Did you know this? Did your installer mention anything about this?

When I first thought about the idea a couple of months ago, I rang a few other installers. Some of them did not mention the issue and said no problem. Another said it would be difficult but thought he could do it. Whilst another, like green conversions, said it shouldn't be done.

Naturally I am concerned by the prospect of having a family car with an LPG tank that is not secured properly. But I am not sure if the guys who said yes are cleverer at securing tanks than the guys who said no, or if they are just irresponsible, or ignorant of the problem.

I'd value thoughts of other members on this, particularly if you have an estate with an upright LPG tank.

 

[Fredhead]

Fred,

Although they told me that the engine was an excellent candidate to run on LPG, they were unhappy with the upright tank arrangement in the spare wheel well. They said that it is impossible to secure the tank well enough to comply with the necessary tank security specifications.

Did you know this? Did your installer mention anything about this?

I'd value thoughts of other members on this, particularly if you have an estate with an upright LPG tank.

Hi Welland99,

The garage did not mention anything of the sort. Basically, I had a stress free conversion and am very happy with performance and mileage. Car runs really well. With conservative driving (mostly motorway) I average a little over 5miles per litre of lpg.

 

[Dieselman]

I can't see the point of buiyng a car and converting it to LPG.

If LPG is 50p/litre and one achieves 5m/l when on light cruise that's 12.1pence per mile.
That's about 1 penny per mile more than my car and 2.5p or more than an E320 Cdi.

I've just checked local filling stations and out of seven only one has LPG and that's 5 miles away in a direction I wouldn't normally travel and a bit off the beaten track. They only have it as they are an LPG installer.

Is it worth it.?

 

[welland99]

I can't see the point of buiyng a car and converting it to LPG.

If LPG is 50p/litre and one achieves 5m/l when on light cruise that's 12.1pence per mile.
That's about 1 penny per mile more than my car and 2.5p or more than an E320 Cdi.

I've just checked local filling stations and out of seven only one has LPG and that's 5 miles away in a direction I wouldn't normally travel and a bit off the beaten track. They only have it as they are an LPG installer.

Is it worth it.?

Hi Dieselman,
You are right to ask if it is worth it as the whole point to me is to save fuel cost. Thanks for your views.

Using Freds figures, he is getting 22.5 MPG on LPG. With fuel at 50p per litre, I reckon that 50000 miles of motoring will cost £5044.

Using MB combined consumption for the E320CDI (from 1999) of 35.8 MPG, I reckon fuel cost for 50000 miles would be £6340, if diesel is £1 per litre.

So this is a very different picture to what your figures give. What car do you have, and what age of E320CDI are you referring to? What are the MPG figures for these two cars and what is your source for the E320CDI, if you don't own one.

I'm not diesel bashing and I would get one if I thought it was a better solution. Putting fuel to one side, do you think there any significant differences to the maintenance costs of a 320CDI and a petrol E320 / E280 / E240 W210?

Fred,
in another thread you wrote that you expected to recoup your expense on the LPG system on as little as 12-14k miles. Can you explain your calculations on this? By my calculations, using the fuel consumption figures you have given (5 miles /l on LPG, 6.5miles / l on petrol) and assuming LPG at 50p/l and petrol at 90p/l, I reckon that in 50000 miles only £1880 would have been saved. (This is roughly equivalent to the costs of LPG conversions I have been quoted).

 

[MrMotul]

Have you though of buying an E270 CDI? these engines are much more fuel efficient than the E320 CDI and are not that much slower too. over 83,000 miles, my W211 E270 returned something like 42mpg, which I would say was very good. I have just bought a W210 E220 CDI which a lot of people say are down on power, so I purchased a chiptuning chip from ebay for £90 odd, put in on my car and power and torque is up noticeably and surprised as I am, my average fuel consumption (by the obc) has gone up from roughly 38-39mpg to 44-46mpg and thats around london learning the knowledge, so I am stop starting all the time and there is more than enough power for overtaking and pulling out quickly, that is, if you need to,

Hope this helps,

Regards,

Terry.

 

[Dieselman]

Using Freds figures, he is getting 22.5 MPG on LPG. With fuel at 50p per litre, I reckon that 50000 miles of motoring will cost £5044.

Using MB combined consumption for the E320CDI (from 1999) of 35.8 MPG, I reckon fuel cost for 50000 miles would be £6340, if diesel is £1 per litre.

Fred said his car was giving that figure when on a light cruise, not as an overall usage figure.
The E280 petrol has to be a W210 or earlier variant, so I used the E320 Cdi from the W210 as a benchmark.
That engine will easily give high 40's mpg when cruising, possibly into the 50's.
The fuel cost for my car is from the last few tankfulls, the car is an E300TD, so about 15% less than a E320 will give.

In addition a TD/CDi will provide much better real world performance than a petrol car due to the increased torque.

If you are looking for a W210 either engine CDi will do, if a W211 look for a 270Cdi for best economy.

This isn't petrol/LPG bashing, just I can't see the economic adavantage for buying a car and converting it, as far as I can see one will only get to about the same fuel cost per mile and have to stand the cost of conversion and any drawbacks involved.

Due to the reduced efficiency when running on LPG it makes a litre of it equate to about 72p which means the petrol is only 1.4 times the cost of LPG per mile.

 

[Peter Guilam]

Biofuel

I have run my 2001 e320 on 90/100 percent Biodiesel for over 2 years 20/30K miles. I make bio myself at a cost of 16 pence a litre. Ive had no engine problems or car problems at all!!!! About once a year the computer comes up with about 4 dire engine faults requiring me to morgage the house and take the car to the main dealer. This is fixed by changing the fuel filter £6.90............Diesel engines were orginally designed to run on veg oil, a main deal engineer tells me a W210 will run on anything since they do all over the world!!!!

 

[bobbydigger]

would a clogged fuel filter cause rough idle tick over after starting?this is running on bio diesel by the way.

 

[Dieselman]

Possibly as it may induce an air leak, but more likely it is poorly squirting injectors.

 

[bobbydigger]

would you recomend some cleaner put through, also im using bio diesel now so i reckon fuel filter might need a change,

 

[Olivier]

Just change the fuel filter,Euro car parts as a good low cost one, clean the pre-filter or change it, again ECP as a good low cost one, make sure you clean the tank strainer and then come back to tell us how it goes