W211 270 CDi Estate - road noise and vibration

[stevewak]

I have a new E270CDi Avant-Garde on standard wheels and (Continental) tyres. The wheels needed balancing as soon as I picked it up (odd), but I still have the impression of a tremour coming through the pedals/floor (not steering wheel). Is this common? not the engine I don't think. Dealer has driven and acknowledged microscopic sensation as 'normal' or 'bumpy roads'. I have chcked tyre pressures - were over-inflated, now spot-on.

Is it me? Any ideas??

 

[glojo]

Is it me? Any ideas??

Hi Steve
If this car is new, then go back to the dealer and politely request you go out in one of their demonstrators. If the vibration is there then perhaps you are being over sensitive. If there is no vibration, then I would hold onto the demonstrator and tell them to fix your car.

I would be very disappointed that the wheels needed balancing after you took delivery. This should have been picked up at the assembly stage?

You have an expensive vehicle, do NOT accept anything less than perfection.

The Avantgarde does have a firm suspension compared to the Elegance and will 'feel' more bumps.

Good luck,
John

 

[prprandall51]

I feel there is a slight tremor in the E Class steering - especially on certain road surfaces, where it is quite pronounced.

However, it is nothing more than "noticable" and in my opinion is a consequence of wide tyres with reasonably low profiles running on certain surfaces. Certainly, the car should be as smooth as silk on the latest, freshly laid tarmacs (especially the quiet type they put down near residential areas).

As I collected the car from the factory (and therefore it was not subjected to being tied down on a traasporter) and I have never so much as kissed a kerb (a first for me) I am completely confident of my car's alignment and wheel blanace, and therefore assume that there is simply a tremor in the E Class steering. I notice it mostly at 85+ mph - way beyond the speed range of wheel balance problems.

Philip

 

[Birdman]

Mine have this vibration problem too. Although wheel balancing probs have been put down to wide heavy rubber, I also get a slight vibe through the floorpan and seat. It seems to be worse on cold mornings after the car has been parked outside, and at the start of a journey rather than further into it. That suggests slight flat-spotting and cold tyres may have something to do with it (I use P Zero Neros). If the MB suspension is unusually susceptible it could have a variety of causes including poorly made-up road surfaces. I've even known a newly dressed road to worsen the vibration compared with its ancient predecessor.

 

[stevewak]

Thanks to all of you. The tyres do definitely flat-spot overnight. I will swap with a friend in a 320CDi as a comparison. Dealer was pretty good about it to be fair - how many new cars have you had that needed wheels balanced when new? Car had been in dealer network so possibly tied down wrongly on transporter and out of alignment. Alignment is a £200 fix so dealer unwilling to throw this in as a gesture.

Very good otherwise - and good deal.

 

[glojo]

The tyres do definitely flat-spot overnight.

Cruel people, fancy leaving your 211's out in the freezing cold. No wonder your car's protest. Shame on you all.

Regards,
John the soft touch

 

[DieselE]

I have a new E270CDi Avant-Garde on standard wheels and (Continental) tyres. The wheels needed balancing as soon as I picked it up (odd), but I still have the impression of a tremour coming through the pedals/floor (not steering wheel). Is this common? not the engine I don't think. Dealer has driven and acknowledged microscopic sensation as 'normal' or 'bumpy roads'. I have chcked tyre pressures - were over-inflated, now spot-on.

Is it me? Any ideas??

If your car is brand new, you might need to do a few hundred miles to let the tyres settle in.

Do you get the tremor at all speeds or just in a certain speed band? I went through a short time with my car when I could feel a tremor at 60-65 on everything but the smoothest surface. A few hundred miles later the problem disappeared. I had the same thing with a Vauxhall Omega some years ago. That was on Michelins, the E is on Continentals. I'm not offering a solution, just saying that the problem might be transient (no that's not Ford's latest van )

 

[glojo]

Our Avantgarde is on the softer suspension, I wonder if this might help explain why we do not feel this minor vibration?

For piece of mind, I would still recommend you go out in a demonstrator. Your vibration might not travel very well on paper, we might think it is a minor non event, but in reality, the steering wheel might be visually vibrating??

I am trying to think of any differences between the 270 andthe 320. The main one I can think of is parameter steering. Does your vehicle have this? (It shouldn't make any difference)

Regards,
John

 

[stevewak]

No parameter steering - it is heavier than I thought (perhaps why tyres over-pressured on delivery, a revison for facelift just launched). I've done nearly 1000 miles now without one really big run - if the wheels hadn't needed balancing I probably wouldn't have picked it up.

Nice engine, rougher than 220 but I think I would have missed the extra poke.

Don't think it's speed-related, and nothing through the 'wheel. All seat and pedals.

 

[glojo]

a revison for facelift just launched). I've done nearly 1000 miles now without one really big run - if the wheels hadn't needed balancing I probably wouldn't have picked it up.

Nice engine, rougher than 220 but I think I would have missed the extra poke.

Don't think it's speed-related, and nothing through the 'wheel. All seat and pedals.

Parameter steering was an option for your vehicle, you could have ordered it if you wanted to, it is standard on the larger engined models. How bad is the vibration through the seat?? We definitely 100% do not get this. I would appreciate a follow-up from other contributors.

I am interested to hear from other members about their vibrating seats as this was a cost option we had to pay for Dynamic seats with massage function.

John

 

[stevewak]

Just come back from long journey today, on quiter roads with some time to think. Vibration I think is from unbalanced wheels (again) from 40 - 75 mph. Over that much better and car really drives as it should - fantastic. Visit to favourite tyre fitter (Chalk Farm - London) needed as M-B dealership have already had 2 goes at it. Perhaps remove and re-fit tyres.

As car is 270 from dealer stock may well be 'old' car that has been standing for a while.

Will report back.

 

[PJH]

Previous E270 vibration link.

 

[glojo]

A good link and it does beg the question.

Does your 270 vibrate when stationary?

John

 

[DieselE]

Just come back from long journey today, on quiter roads with some time to think. Vibration I think is from unbalanced wheels (again) from 40 - 75 mph. Over that much better and car really drives as it should - fantastic. Visit to favourite tyre fitter (Chalk Farm - London) needed as M-B dealership have already had 2 goes at it. Perhaps remove and re-fit tyres.

As car is 270 from dealer stock may well be 'old' car that has been standing for a while.

Will report back.

Just a few thoughts on wheel balancing.

If your wheels are genuinly unbalanced, the problem would get steadily worse and would certainly not disappear above 75 mile/h.

You might have a resonant frequency vibration problem but a 35 mile/h speed band seems rather wide for that problem.

It used to be possible to have the front wheels balanced on the car. Whilst that often solved the problem it meant you had to know exactly how the wheel was mounted on the hub (paint spots on wheel and one stud was a favourite trick) to make sure it was always refitted correctly. However, this facility may well have disappeared with the onset of digital balancing machines.

Like I said, a few thoughts not necessarily a solution.

 

[stevewak]

Yes it does vibrate on idle when stationary but not the same! I want to see for myself the wheels on a wheel balancer.

 

[stevewak]

All four wheels completely balanced to my satisfaction (in my presence). Fronts quite badly out. Car now drives with nothing through wheel but I'm sure I can get a rumbling through the floor.

 

[Satch]

Tricky. Many possible sources, perhaps the most tiresome being things like a slightly out of kilter Prop. shaft or below par engine/gearbox mountings because it can be difficult to get a dealer to take that sort of complaint seriously if it is deemed "minor".

Might be worth experimenting with tyre pressures before going further if only to eliminate this as a possible source of misery.

I found with my E320Cdi Avantgarde Estate that, perhaps due to the stiffer suspension, road noise & harshness diminishes markedly when I have a load in the rear (at virtually any pressure) but without a load rear tyre pressure seems very important.

At the specified rear standard pressure of 2.2bar (32psi) with a light load things seemed a bit too much noise & vibration and perhaps a bit of jitter over rougher surfaces. So having played around with pressures for a bit I found that with Pirelli P7's (yuck and double yuck but they still have a few thou. to go) 30 psi gave a very much better result. Small diffference but that can be all it takes when dealing with suspension resonances. (And yes, I did purchase a BS certified caliberated pressure gauge)

Something of the same effect with my winter tyres, Goodyear Ultra Grip GW3's, although being softer compound not so pronounced. Run those at 31psi.

With heavier loads always inflate up to spec but for everyday running about the slightly lower pressures seem to suit the car better. In terms of tyre wear since the rears always wear out from the middle a slightly lower pressure might actually help.

Good luck

 

[glojo]

Yes it does vibrate on idle when stationary but not the same! I want to see for myself the wheels on a wheel balancer.

Glad to hear that you have had the wheels balanced. You state you still feel a certain vibration. Is this only when the vehicle is moving, or can it also be felt when stationary?

Regards,
John

 

[stevewak]

The vertical 'run-out' when visible on the balancer is 4 - 5mm on at least one of the fronts. Enough to give a 'drumming' noise.

Having driven all and sundry mad on the subject, consulted other (reliable) tyre fitters and a variety of top-level motor engineers the body of opinion is...

The car had been in storage with the pressure probably too low, and as a result has 'flat-spotted' which is impossible to to remove via balancing. Possible solutions - scrap the tyres and replace or over-inflate to 60psi and leave for a few days (perhaps the dealer knew that so that's why over-inflated on delivery), or remove, refit and re-balance.

Short-term - remove all and pick best two for front.

I am sort of in the business and have done a lot of racing so I am used to this messing about - I will ask dealer for their views...

Does this all make sense??

 

[Birdman]

The car had been in storage with the pressure probably too low, and as a result has 'flat-spotted' which is impossible to to remove via balancing. Possible solutions - scrap the tyres and replace or over-inflate to 60psi and leave for a few days (perhaps the dealer knew that so that's why over-inflated on delivery), or remove, refit and re-balance.

Flat spotting sounds a likely explanation.

The last suggestion (remove, refit, rebalance) seems to contradict the first (impossible to remove via balancing) and I would agree with your first suggestion. You won't be happy unless any flat spots are removed since the wheel vibration is primarily due to mechanical distortion and only secondarily to loss of mass balance, although that would exacerbate the problem.

You could try pumping them up to the maximum recommended pressure and do some heavy braking and cornering to heat up the tyres. It might help iron them out a bit.

As a motorcyclist I'm aware that leaving a sports bike's tyres unsupported over the winter can ruin them permanently due to flat-spotting, which is why I use paddock stands (or you can move the bike a few inches every few days). The profile of a bike tyre is massively different to a car tyre, but I reckon the same principle may apply to heavy high-speed cars on stiff side-walled low-profile tyres.

Btw if you do try heavy braking don't hold the car stationary on the brakes when they're hot or you risk transferring uneven amounts of brake pad compound to the discs. That is another recognised cause of low frequency vibration although present only under firm braking (and sometimes wrongly attributed to 'warped discs').