W211 E class SBC - interesting

[gIzzE]

Been reading. You can't. They are about £700, then there is the fitting, STAR programming etc.

Off to look at BMW X5's instead.

Turbo.
Gearbox.
Swirlfaps.

Good luck.

Buying a now 10-15 year old car just needs you to go in eyes wide open.

Compared to some of the issues with X5's the W211 issues are small fry imho.

I would not buy one of these older cars if it wasn't for me getting all my work done for nothing, father in law owns a garage, I just pay for parts.

You have to seriously weigh up buying 10+ year old big German cars with hiring new, once you take into account MPG, cheap tax, no warranty issues etc. there isn't as much in it as you think.

I guess MPG makes a big difference to that, if you only do 5k miles a year then the older car will be cheaper, but if you do 20k miles a year the gap narrows...a lot.
I was putting in just over £100 for 450 miles on average in my ML, so around £500 a month.
I was then spending approx. £100 a month in upkeep, maybe a little less, but over the two years I have been driving it that is the average. You could argue that now all that is done it would probably be a cheap motor to keep on the road in future, but you never know.

I have swapped for a 2013 X3, it is costing me £300 a month, but I now get over 500 miles for £60, so I am saving around £230 a month in fuel.
So in real terms with no warranty issues I am actually £70 up a month by swapping my 13 year old car for an 18 month old one.

Now, I will probably take out the BMW warranty next year when the 3 year warranty runs out, that is £33 a month, but still better off being in a new car.



Now, if you are looking at an X5 you might be better to go nearly new, with something like the X3, mine is only the 20d xDrive auto, but it is quicker than my old 3.0d X5 and far nicer place to be.
But depends on your mileage, but do the sums properly.
X5 3.0d used to return between 21-27mpg by the way, you could see 30+ on a steady run, but best tank was 27 and worst was 21mpg.
I had the use of the 4.6i for a fortnight and that was not much worse, about 3-4mpg behind, so worth considering to be honest as lots less to go wrong.

I averaged 34mpg in my E320cdi estate, later model with 7 speed 'box but no dpf.


Just do the maths properly, sometimes it is better to know you £xxx going out each month rather than suddenly facing a big £1500 bill on a car worth £3k.

 

[flango]

^ that is top advice running an X5 in terms of repair bills will be far more than a 211 they aren't known for reliability

 

[JimmySpangle]

Interesting comments.

ALL cars require repairs, whether they are maintained or not. It is no good slating X5's as if they are terrible cars, because they are not.

Any car is only as good as the manufacturer who made it, the team that built it, the owners and the people that serviced it.

I don't buy any car without a full checkable history. I also examine every part of the car possible, from the engine to the rear seat belts, from the bodywork, to the brackets holding the exhaust on.

X5 tyres are expensive compared to E class. BUT they do not have a silly electric brake system that CAN fail.

They do have expensive 4 wheel drive gearboxes and associated expensive electronics. But, if you ask most X5 owners if they would buy another they say yes.

No such thing as a perfect car. I used to work for Jack Barclay's in London (Rolls Royce). Just the same as any other car in terms of the things going wrong.

Mercedes E class appeals simply because I like very much the interior layout from a drivers view. I particualrly dislike the X5 dash, but the rest of the car and the ride make up for it.

No decisions made yet. If I find a nice E class with the SBC changed and solid underneath, I may still go for one.

But for around 5k, I would rather have an X5.

Don't worry - I won't be looking at any ML's. YUKKKKK!

 

[b1g1an]

Love the way you just read things the way you want to read them, obviously what caused you to misunderstand most of what you read before original post.

The SBC pump doesn't fail, it's a consumable with a finite life and in fact they must be more reliable than Bosch assumed by way of the fact they can now extend the service life by 50%. There was a recall for the first cars with SBC but that was nothing to do why they may need replacing now. It's just unfortunate that there isn't a simple way for the owner to know when its time is up.

 

[gIzzE]

I didn't slate the X5, I just said they seem to cause the owners far more pain than E Classes.

I have owned both and sat on the forums for the last 10+ years. The E53 X5 has lots of things that go wrong and they start to feel tired quickly.

I actually rate the ML above the X5. I had an X5 10 years ago, and had an ML Inspiration in 2003, at the time I preferred the hard ride of the X5, but getting in them now every X5 I have been in that is that age felt knackered, like it needed a couple of grand of suspension work done.
Bushes like butter don't help.
Where as the MLs have held up well, but they were softly damped which helps reduce the stress somewhat.

Brother just sold my old E39 530i sport, which the X5 is based on, even that had so many little electrical gremlins and needed suspension work constantly, he must have changed the nearside front wishbone half a dozen times in 5 years, hit the slightest pothole or even a slightly raised iron work and the bush goes.
He had the gearbox issue as well, got one from a breaker for a few hundred quid and my father in law fitted it.

Not saying they are bad cars, I am saying they are old cars, and thinking an X5 will be cheaper to look after than an E Class is naive.

Would I buy another X?
Yeah, I did in December, great cars.
Would I run a £5000 one with 120k miles on it? Not a chance, cheaper to buy a nearly new X3.

 

[Dryce]

X5 tyres are expensive compared to E class. BUT they do not have a silly electric brake system that CAN fail.

The SBC system is far from silly - and the majority of 'failures' are in fact the messages indicating that it is life expired - but it's still working.

The downside of SBC is that it's (a) another point of failure and (b) you will need to pay to get it sorted.

MB make this 'silly' in the sense that the cost of replacing the pump has been way too high. Idiotically so. And it distorts the economics and particularly the perceived economics of the pre-facelift W211.

What makes SBC rather unsilly is the braking performance in real world situations. People might moan about the cost but most owners don't realise when it saves them.

The cost of the SBC replacement isn't an issue if you plan to keep the car for several years - just account for it in your anticipated costs. I think it is an issue if you are only planning to keep the car for a short while as you then can't amortise that cost over a longer period and depending on what you pay the cost is likely to end up being disproportionate.

As for BMWs ...... my reckoning is that the inherent issues with our Z4 potentially exceed the cost of SBC replacement - but basically are incurred in stages so you get hit with the cost but not a single bill.

 

[Dryce]

X5 tyres are expensive compared to E class. BUT they do not have a silly electric brake system that CAN fail.

The SBC system is far from silly - and the majority of 'failures' are in fact the messages indicating that it is life expired - but it's still working.

The downside of SBC is that it's (a) another point of failure and (b) you will need to pay to get it sorted.

MB make this 'silly' in the sense that the cost of replacing the pump has been way too high. Idiotically so. And it distorts the economics and particularly the perceived economics of the pre-facelift W211.

What makes SBC rather unsilly is the braking performance in real world situations. People might moan about the cost but most owners don't realise when it saves them.

The cost of the SBC replacement isn't an issue if you plan to keep the car for several years - just account for it in your anticipated costs. I think it is an issue if you are only planning to keep the car for a short while as you then can't amortise that cost over a longer period andthe cost is likely to end up being disproportionate.

As for BMWs ...... my reckoning is that the inherent issues with our Z4 will potentially exceed the cost of SBC replacement over an equivalent period - but basically are incurred in stages so you get hit with the cost but not a single bill. The thing is that several large bills tend to freak people out less than one very large one.

 

[bozmandb9]

Just to chip in my thoughts. I recently purchased a 2005 E350. Initially I was concerned about the SBC, until I found this page extolling it's virtues, I'm now very happy to have a car with SBC. I find the SBC Hold function incredibly useful for example.

As above, replacement is nowhere near as costly as it used to be, and I'll be putting a warranty on the car in any event.

If you want to avoid big repair bills Jimmy, forget about the X5! I'd stick to the E class pre 2006, it really is a lovely car, especially if you can find a late AvantGarde!

 

[bozmandb9]

Sorry, duplicate post!

 

[DSM10000]

Just to chip in my thoughts. I recently purchased a 2005 E350. Initially I was concerned about the SBC, until I found this page extolling it's virtues, I'm now very happy to have a car with SBC. I find the SBC Hold function incredibly useful for example.

As above, replacement is nowhere near as costly as it used to be, and I'll be putting a warranty on the car in any event.

If you want to avoid big repair bills Jimmy, forget about the X5! I'd stick to the E class pre 2006, it really is a lovely car, especially if you can find a late AvantGarde!

Glad to se a number of rational and balanced views on this!

Regarding a warranty, I am not sure SBC would be covered because it is likely to be viewed by the Warranty company as a "wear and tear" item?

 

[whitenemesis]

Glad to se a number of rational and balanced views on this!

Regarding a warranty, I am not sure SBC would be covered because it is likely to be viewed by the Warranty company as a "wear and tear" item?

Warranty Direct stated they would cover this when I took out a warranty on my 219. WD do cover wear and tear but require a contribution depending on age and mileage. This was waved in my policy.

Always worth negotiating but get any concessions in writing...

 

[BlackC55]

The counter can be re-set and you can also read the amount of brake applications too.

 

[parkscon]

Ive just gone and checked mine at 195,000 miles on a late 04 registered car.. All mb service history. But no other interesting paperwork with the car. The sbc has h/w 07/04 and s/w 07/04 written clearly on it. Id suggest that its original.

good for you, bad for me as i suspect i have to budget for a replacement very soon. Poo.

having a quick look around, theres a company called sinspeed who claim to be able to "remanufacture" the unit. Bosch also state its remanufacturable.

I would forget about sinspeed, they charged me £450 for a so called remanufacture which turned out to be a simple counter reset which I could have had done anywhere for around £100

 

[guydewdney]

You can buy the reset tool on fleabay for 38 quid......

 

[mannikon]

You can buy the reset tool on fleabay for 38 quid......

The "reset tools" advertised are not for resetting the SBC counter. they're used for switching the system off while you do a brake service.

 

[guydewdney]

No, they say they are counter reset tools. With four buttons 25% 50% 75% and 100%. Heres one for 29 quid. I might buy it so that i can temp reset the unit until i can get a replacement sbc unit. However, i think its irresponsible and dangerous to reset the brakes as they will fail at some point. Id rather get in the car and not be able to drive it than find that they fail at the end of a motorway sliproad......

OBD SBC reset tool for benz W211 R230 ABS SBC Reset TOOL (Clear Code C249F) | eBay

 

[V12]

If it fails you will have brakes with no assist. I drove an E320cdi down the estate with no SBC. At a gentle 20mph and no traffic around, the lack of assist is not scary. I imagine higher speeds and heavy traffic would be a different story.

The idea that SBC would get to the end of it's counter and just leave the driver with no brakes whatsoever is ridiculous.

 

[b1g1an]

If it fails you will have brakes with no assist. I drove an E320cdi down the estate with no SBC. At a gentle 20mph and no traffic around, the lack of assist is not scary. I imagine higher speeds and heavy traffic would be a different story.

The idea that SBC would get to the end of it's counter and just leave the driver with no brakes whatsoever is ridiculous.

SBC isn't an “assist“, it's the brakes full stop. The brake pedal is just a switch that controls the unit as opposed to normal brakes where the pedal physically operates the master cylinder and the brake servo 'assists' to apply more pressure.

 

[whitenemesis]

If the SBC reaches the end of it's service life it will still operate, the message is just that, a message to tell you to change it. I guess it may disable the car should one ignore the message long enough (number of IGN cycles?)

If the SBC system 'fails' there is still a reserve of 'assistance' in the high pressure reservoir to bring the car to a stop.

If the system was so dangerous how come one doesn't read reports on the 'net of all these Stuttgart taxis crashing into one another? Or autobahn stormers causing devastation on roads throughout Europe?

The thing is SBC is a fantastic brake system, I've "enjoyed" it's superior control over the car. It's an expensive service consumable but compared to others, e.g. ceramic composite discs, relatively cheap considering it's average service life.

 

[whitenemesis]

SBC isn't an “assist“, it's the brakes full stop. The brake pedal is just a switch that controls the unit as opposed to normal brakes where the pedal physically operates the master cylinder and the brake servo 'assists' to apply more pressure.

The brake pedal is attached to a tandem master cylinder, if the system suffers a complete failure pressure on the brake pedal is transferred directly to the hydraulic fluid in the front axle brake lines. There is braking but only on the front axle and without servo assistance.