w211 Juddering at 1200 revs

[harveyn]

I have a W211 E320 cdi estate that is still under warranty and covered some 40,000 miles. It has developed a juddering sensation at around 1200 revs, most noticable under gentle acceleration. I had a similar issue at around 1800 revs a few months back, which was cured on the second attempt with no satisfactory explanation of what it was! Any ideas would be much appreciated.
Many thanks
Harvey

 

[DieselE]

If your car is an early model (i.e. before September 2003) one of the possible causes could be what is outlined in the thread below.

http://www.mbclub.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=27051

Of course, it might be something much simpler. Just keep hammering away at the dealer to make sure it's fixed before the warranty runs out.

 

[harveyn]

Thanks!

Many thanks, I had read that, the only other known common fault I had heard was something to do with the turbo wastegate...I will report back in a few days, it is booked in tomorrow!

 

[harveyn]

Update

The dealer did indeed find the gearbox oil to be contaminated, exactly as per the bulletin, the car was manufactured in August 2003. They found the same last March, put new oil in and it was fine for three months. They asked dcuk what they should do this time, and guess what....they suggested they refill the gearbox, and if the oil looked clean, give it back to me. I don't know what others think, but if I wasn't taking out a service plus contract, I would not feel comfortable with this. I can't see what they have done differently this time, so fully expect the symptoms to return. In fairness the dealer offered to take a sample 'for peace of mind' in a few months time. (I have confirmed that the gearbox will be covered by the service plus contract).

 

[Brian WH]

The dealer did indeed find the gearbox oil to be contaminated, exactly as per the bulletin, the car was manufactured in August 2003. They found the same last March, put new oil in and it was fine for three months. They asked dcuk what they should do this time, and guess what....they suggested they refill the gearbox, and if the oil looked clean, give it back to me. I don't know what others think, but if I wasn't taking out a service plus contract, I would not feel comfortable with this. I can't see what they have done differently this time, so fully expect the symptoms to return. In fairness the dealer offered to take a sample 'for peace of mind' in a few months time. (I have confirmed that the gearbox will be covered by the service plus contract).

Not good news and just putting off the solution in my opinion.

Get them to find the cause and not treat the effects.

 

[Satch]

Not good news and just putting off the solution in my opinion.

Get them to find the cause and not treat the effects.

Quite. If it is a known problem there must be a known cause and a known fix, not just a temporary remediation. That is plain stupid.

Were I in your position would draft PDQ an email to Dealer and DCUK giving full details and asking why they continue to attempt blatent short term fixes to a known issue that must have serious long term implications at the same time when the company is trying to turn around customer service and brand image.

[email protected]

You might care to copy this gentleman in

[email protected]

Sure he will be most interested to learn how his efforts are being reflected in the real world.

 

[Dieselman]

Quite. If it is a known problem there must be a known cause and a known fix, not just a temporary remediation. That is plain stupid.

Were I in your position would draft PDQ an email to Dealer and DCUK giving full details and asking why they continue to attempt blatent short term fixes to a known issue that must have serious long term implications at the same time when the company is trying to turn around customer service and brand image.

[email protected]

You might care to copy this gentleman in

[email protected]

Sure he will be most interested to learn how his efforts are being reflected in the real world.

Classic comment!

 

[glojo]

Get them to find the cause and not treat the effects.

Totally agree.

Why on earth aren't they checking the radiator\hose pipes\connections???

I would copy the Service Bulletin and very politely show it to the senior service person that is dealing with your complaint. The article is an official Mercedes-Benz Technical Service Bulletin.

Good luck,
John

 

[GIN51E]

using my endless resources i can have a look for your problem but i need more info,

is it a 7 speed or 5 speed? 722.9 or 722.6?

also give me the first 6 digits of your vin, 211xxx

and the first 6 digits of your engine number would be good also.

6xxxxx

and the shudder is it in the engine or Transmission or in the drivetrain? can you produce the fault whilst the vehicle is stationary? or is there a particular speed range?


there is a number of items it could be and with all the systems on the cars being so advanced and sensitive to the slightest problem its hard for the workshops to pin point the fault with the vehicle unless the customer tells us exactly what they are feeling and when or how it is produced is it always there or only at times.

 

[glojo]

using my endless resources i can have a look for your problem but i need more info,

is it a 7 speed or 5 speed? 722.9 or 722.6?.

It will definitely be a 5 speed

John

 

[GIN51E]

- Humming/droning noises, or jolting during gentle acceleration between engine speed of 1200 - 2500 rpm -

Topic number​

GI27.55-P-012236

Version​

6

Construction Group​

27.55 Transmission oil cooling

Date​

01-07-2005

Validity​

Model series 203 up to production date 9/2003 with M111/271/112/OM646/OM611/612.990 and automatic transmission 722.6
Model series 209 up to production date 9/2003 with M271/112/113/OM612 and automatic transmission 722.6
Model series 211 up to production date 9/2003 with M271/113/OM628/647/648 and automatic transmission 722.6

Change Reason​

Addition of damage code list to be used in case of repair

Damage Code​

2743104

[FONT=Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif]Complaint [/FONT]During gentle acceleration humming/droning noises can occur in the speed range between 1200 - 2500 rpm. Likewise it cannot be ruled out that the vehicle will jolt in the rpm range stated.

The complaint can be reproduced at any time.

[FONT=Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif]Cause [/FONT]The complaint can be caused by a faulty transmission control unit, a torque converter lockup clutch which has not been adapted, a fouled torque converter lockup clutch disk or by glycol in the transmission oil, see Tips documents.

[FONT=Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif]Remedy [/FONT]CAUTION:
Always work through steps 1-5 in sequence:

1.) The complaint is no longer reproducible after disengaging the torque converter lockup clutch on an experimental basis. Deactivate the torque converter lockup clutch for one ignition sequence using DAS. Menu in DAS: Control units > Drive > ETC > Diagnosis routines > the torque converter lockup clutch can now be deactivated in transmission mode "W" or "C".
SSL 27287H4

2.) Only on model series 211 up to chassis end number 089500:
Check transmission control unit: AF27.10-P-9100AG
SSL 5455390

3.) Perform torque converter lockup clutch adaptation as per documentation in TIPS
SSL 27287H4

4.) Diesel particulate filter: Check whether the bracket for the diesel particulate filter is loose. If necessary tighten to the specified tightening torque.
SSL 1437038

5.) The following basic conditions must exist:
If the complaint is still present after carrying out test steps 1-4, the glycol test is to be carried out if the vehicle was produced before 9/2003, a Valeo radiator is fitted (perform visual inspection - crimping must be visible, see annex "Valeo") and the mileage is >10,000km.
SSL 2743104

Instructions for glycol test (see also annex "Glycol test"):
1. Fill 0.5 ml of transmission oil with the pipette in the small glass container (see picture 1).
2. Fill with distilled water to 5 ml (see picture 2).
3. Add a drop of "Tenside" (see picture 3).
4. Add a microspoon of "Periodic acid" and rock the small glass container (see picture 4).
5. Allow to stand for five minutes (see picture 5).
6. Add ten drops of "caustic acid solution" (see picture 6).
7. Allow to stand for three minutes (see picture 7).
8. The sample separates into two layers; an upper and a lower layer. Immerse the syringe into the lower layer and take up approx. 4 ml of the lower layer using the syringe (see picture 8).
9. Pour the fluid taken up through the filter into a clean small glass container (see picture 9).
10. Immerse test sticks in the filtered solution for approx. 2 seconds, shake and wait for one minute reaction time (see picture 10). It is essential to adhere to the timing specifications otherwise a corruption of the test results occurs.
11. Compare the color of the test sticks with the color zones on the test tubes (see picture 11).

Important: !!! Perform changed repair procedure according to the test result:!!!

- Up to 100 mg/l glycol in ATF oil: Process fault according to manual for fault diagnosis, model 211 (order number 6516 1302 00).

- As of a glycol content greater than 100 mg/l. Exchange radiator, flush torque converter, lines and transmission. see AR 27.55-P-0100A.

If the complaint is still reproducible after the flush routine, just the torque converter must additionally be replaced.
The replacement radiator must be labeled with a white mark before installation (see radiator marking picture).

 

[JohnFitz]

I have an 03 W211 E270CDi with just under 60k miles and since March 06 it has been back to the dealer SIX times with this problem, the last time being just three weeks ago. Too early to tell yet if they've finally managed to sort it but it has been such a nightmare - DC Customer Services have been less than useless and I've now got to the stage where I've documented the whole farce and sent it by fax to Deiter Zetsche - by the way, have those who have tried to use the email address given elsewhere on these forums ([email protected]) ever managed to get an email through?
Am now less than two months from end of warranty and really not happy that I'm stuck with a car that has, so far, had two new radiator/ATF intercoolers and three (yes three!) torque converters. I am trying to get M-B to agree to either a goodwill payment to extend the warranty on the transmission or a straight swap for a similar mileage, spec etc car that I can at least sell with a clear conscience.

 

[awg454]

Hi Had the same problem just had the gearbox,torque converter,and rad replaced under warratty.

 

[JohnFitz]

Hi awg454 - how did you persuade them to replace the gearbox? I think mine is still not right but they haven't offered to replace the gearbox - they tell me it's not 'part of the repair' for this problem

 

[awg454]

Hi awg454 - how did you persuade them to replace the gearbox? I think mine is still not right but they haven't offered to replace the gearbox - they tell me it's not 'part of the repair' for this problem

Hi i booked the car in to have the gearbox oil and filter changed although mercedes dont have this as necessary on this year car,they do on later ones with seemingly the same gearbox,when they checked the paper filter it had several metal particals in it.because they found this they didnt charge me for he oil change and then did the further tests.

 

[lexon]

Got the same symptoms with my w211. Booked for a service with the dealer on Monday. I have an extended warranty from MB due to the number of issues i've had with the vehicle so far in its life. I'm assuming this will be a warranty issue if not......

 

[television]

Yes it will be the Valeo rad problem where the torque convertor will be changed along with the radiator.

 

[SL300-24]

I dont have the problem, but do I believe, have a valeo radiator fitted to my car. Mileage is 33k car out of warranty. Should I do anything to ensure that this problem does not affect me?

 

[Dieselman]

Have the radiator checked to see if it's suspect, if really concerned change it.

 

[lexon]

The dealer has driven the car and can feel the juddering. MB won't cover the glycol test and I'm being charged £156 for it. I guess depending on the outcome it could be worth it........

Seems odd you agree there's a problem but then charge to find out what when the car's under warranty. The car is a March 04 model and from what i can see doesn't have the Valeo radiator.