WARNING Pressed Metal Plates

[Teflonso]

It's a long thread, but I'll throw in my two penn'orth.

Contrary to statements and conclusions so far, steel IS a retroreflective material, at least in terms as in the Oxford English Dictionary of the term "retroreflection".

I make this bold claim on the basis of spending my entire career in the shiny steel industry, a lot of it concentrating on making the stuff even shinier. I've had my hands on the measuring gear once or twice and used to talk gloss measurements and specular reflectance with customers. Strictly speaking, anything short of the soot at the back of your fireplace is retroreflective and unless the law specifies exactly what proportion of light has to be refelcted back, then even dull aluminium qualifies. Even wood.

The steel that came out of the factory before someone blanked and pressed it with numbers was retroreflective. As arguably, is the paint that was applied on top. Except the black lettters.

Acrylic, on the other hand, ISN'T retroreflective. At least, the clear perspex on the front of the plate isn't, since light goes straight through it. It's the yellow or white plastic behind that provides the retroreflectance.

That the plod's ANPR camera can't identify the letters when looking through a glass windscreen is no proof of reflectivity, it's just an indication of how good the equipment itself is. Any old-time photographer with light meter in pocket can demonstrate this.

However, I'd guess the real offence is having the wrong font (German style plates are not acceptable) or having raised letters, which is also verboten in the full regs. But, if Plod gave me a ticket which explicitly stated only the retroreflective bit, I'd happily have my day in court and get it chucked out on this technicality.


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[meeeb]

It's a long thread, but I'll throw in my two penn'orth.

Contrary to statements and conclusions so far, steel IS a retroreflective material, at least in terms as in the Oxford English Dictionary of the term "retroreflection".

I make this bold claim on the basis of spending my entire career in the shiny steel industry, a lot of it concentrating on making the stuff even shinier. I've had my hands on the measuring gear once or twice and used to talk gloss measurements and specular reflectance with customers. Strictly speaking, anything short of the soot at the back of your fireplace is retroreflective and unless the law specifies exactly what proportion of light has to be refelcted back, then even dull aluminium qualifies. Even wood.

The steel that came out of the factory before someone blanked and pressed it with numbers was retroreflective. As arguably, is the paint that was applied on top. Except the black lettters.

Acrylic, on the other hand, ISN'T retroreflective. At least, the clear perspex on the front of the plate isn't, since light goes straight through it. It's the yellow or white plastic behind that provides the retroreflectance.

That the plod's ANPR camera can't identify the letters when looking through a glass windscreen is no proof of reflectivity, it's just an indication of how good the equipment itself is. Any old-time photographer with light meter in pocket can demonstrate this.

However, I'd guess the real offence is having the wrong font (German style plates are not acceptable) or having raised letters, which is also verboten in the full regs. But, if Plod gave me a ticket which explicitly stated only the retroreflective bit, I'd happily have my day in court and get it chucked out on this technicality.


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"REQUIREMENTS FOR REGISTRATION PLATESPART 1VEHICLES REGISTERED AND NEW REGISTRATION PLATES FITTED ON OR AFTER 1ST SEPTEMBER 2001 (MANDATORY SPECIFICATION)1. The plate must be made of retroreflecting material which, as regards its construction, colour and other qualities, complies with the requirements of—
(a)the British Standard specification for retroreflecting number plates published on 15 January 1998 under number BS AU 145d(1), or
(b)any other relevant standard or specification recognised for use in an EEA State and which, when in use, offers a performance equivalent to that offered by a plate complying with the British Standard specification,
and which, in either case, is marked with the number (or such other information as is necessary to permit identification) of that standard or specification."

To be honest I haven't read the whole of the thread, due to my relatively low boredom threshold, but if the plate isn't marked with the relevant number, then it's not legal.

A word of sincere advice from one who knows, don't rely on dictionary definitions, or the application of common sense when trying to interpret law. They are sometimes like oil and water, hence the not infrequent difference between the letter of the law and the spirit of the law. The former is usually prime.

The law is vast and complex, which is why barrack-room lawyers often get it wrong and why real lawyers are usually rich.

 

[Giantvanman]

"The law is vast and complex, which is why barrack-room lawyers often get it wrong and why real lawyers are usually rich".

Never a truer word said.

 

[BillyW124]

My German pressed plates on the 124 are a defo no no then.

I know this... so did the copper behind me in traffic. I guess its only a matter of time. I'll take the risk!

...and carry a set of proper plates in the boot, just in case i can speech PC plod.

 

[Teflonso]

Well, I'm always happy to listen to free legal advice. I'll avoid the full details of my two successful visits to court, albeit aided by some very, very expensive advice, so I do have a little expereince of the system.

However, I'll happily point out two obvious things:

As you say,
b)any other relevant standard or specification recognised for use in an EEA State and which, when in use, offers a performance equivalent to that offered by a plate complying with the British Standard specification,
and which, in either case, is marked with the number (or such other information as is necessary to permit identification) of that standard or specification."

............... which would suggest that a German standard plate would do nicely thank you ???????????

And secondly,
Although the law is infinately confusing and often illogical, it's a slam dunk that no-one is going to get bitten at a magistrates court on the basis of a ticket which says "numberplate not of retroreflective material".

A ticket saying, "illegal number plates" is a different kettle of fish - the difference being that Mr Plod in a traffic car is qualified to testify whether a plate has the right typeface, spacing and the BS Au145d sticker in the corner but is not completent to testify to it's retroreflectivity, since he is not equipped with approropraite measuring equipment. He may even have a gizmo in the boot for determining if your tints are too dark but I'll wager he can't measure reflectivity of your plates.

And if the evidence was based on "my ANPR camera couldn't read the plate" then you wouldn't need a lawyer, all you'd need is a couple of questions and you'd be on your way.

So yes, although no barrack room lawyer, on this particular and very narrow point I'd happily take my chances before the beak.

I may even get my chance, on a similar theme. I have a car in my garage, bought new 7 years ago which I specified with no dealer markings. The number plates fitted not only have no supplier postcode as required, but not even the BS Au145d sticker in the corner. If I get pulled over, I'll make sure to report how I get on.

My post wasn't to make any legal pronouncements. Merely to point out the errors in the comments by the barrack room scientists., since I did once understand a bit about shiny stuff.

Unfortunately, I too have a short attention span so won't bother looking up the precise details of the legislation. Not unless I ever need to, of course. I'm quite confident though that there's no material difference in retroreflectivity between a metal plate with a plastic coating on it or a metal plate, plastic coated with some perspex bonded on the front.


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[flango]

Plod ANPR cameras are mounted on the outside of the car not inside. You will never see a prosecution for non conforming plates from an interior anpr camera as it would be immediately dismissed on the same grounds as using a laser speed camera from within the car, there is a layer of glass that upsets the transmission and return

 

[V12]

Have had several vehicles with pressed metal plates for years (no silly German looking text or spacing though). Never had an issue.

Our old recovery truck had metal plates on as someone the plastic ones would break every few months from a rogue skid ramp or ratchet strap.

The copper who once pulled me over even commented that metal plates were a good idea on a vehicle like that...

Since then I always use metal plates on my trailers etc and have done many hundred thousand miles with them on and not had an issue.

I think the police are more concerned about ticketing people for bad spacing, black silver retro style plates, italic fonts and the like.

 

[meeeb]

I'm quite confident though that there's no material difference in retroreflectivity between a metal plate with a plastic coating on it or a metal plate, plastic coated with some perspex bonded on the front

This may anyway be an academic discussion:


From the BNMA website:-

"Can I use a metal number plate?
BNMA is a member of the BSI panel which is revising the number plate standard BS AU 145d:1998 “Specification for retroreflecting number plates”. This task group also includes representatives from DfT, ACPO, Home Office and the Home Office Centre for Applied Science and Technology
The objective is to update this 1998 standard in the light of modern requirements and to update testing where appropriate in order to maintain performance standards.
This draft standard (BS AU 145e) will be available for consultation shortly. BNMA customers will see little change as most work has been around the perfomance of the reflective materials themselves. There is likely to be a requirement, however, that plate fixings should not intrude into the area of the plate containing the registration characters and that the characters should be uniform black in nature. This is intended to reinforce the existing requirement for fixings not to interfere with readings - see 11.3 of The Road Vehicles (Display of Registration Marks) Regulations 2001. No reference will be made to character spacing and design, incidentally, as this is also fully covered in the 2001 Regulations.
The current standard is a performance standard and the panel is keen that it remains non-prescriptive ie the standard does not require the plates to be made of any particular materials as long as they meet the performance requirements - this is designed to encourage innovation by industry. This means for example that in effect that either plastic or metal plates can be used, and this principle will be carried forward into the new standard."


From the BSI website:-


"Number:BS AU 145e
Committee:AUE/1
Committee name:Vehicle lighting and signalling
Review published:24 Feb 2014
Review end date:30 Apr 2014
No. of comments:11


Draft Scope:This British Standard specifies requirements for retroreflecting number plates for vehicles, including requirements for colorimetric, photometric and radiometric properties in the visible and near infrared parts of the electromagnetic spectrum, and resistance to bending, impact, abrasion vibration, corrosion, solvents, weathering and extremes of temperature.

In short, the material question (excuse the pun!) may be covered by the new standard.

It will be noted from the Draft Scope that there's more to it than just if the plate is 'shiny'!

 

[Alex225]

Have had several vehicles with pressed metal plates for years (no silly German looking text or spacing though). Never had an issue.

I must admit I'm the same. Both my E and CLS have metal pressed plates, albeit it legally spaced and with the correct font. Been through a few MOTs and not been pulled over for them in the last few years. In fact my other half's SL and my previous Saab had them fitted too.

Not questioning the legalities of it but you'd hope the Police may pick up on the likes of a local C63 who not only drives like a total bell end but also has black and silver plates. Staggers me how many poorly spaced or misrepresented plates there are regardless of what the plates are made of. Another that stood out to me was the 911 with a plate which read 911 something, thought that was pretty cool. Until on closer look it was S11 something instead! Completely misrepresented.

 

[french]

They're not the ones that matter.

If the police made the effort to tackle real crime, then fine go after people with out of date tax discs and badly spaced number plates, but they are too lazy.

I think they really do matter ...The"Yorkshire Ripper" was causing mayhem & seemingly untouchable by the police's efforts. After his arrest for driving with false number plates in January 1981...
Peter Sutcliffe - Wikipedia

 

[renault12ts]

If one thing is clear, nowhere does the law ban the use of metal! I've had mine from ** for years and they are definitely legal.

Notwithstanding your advert nor the fact that you are replying to a 4 year old thread...have you been stopped...yet?

 

[219]

According to the police and the state, it seems to involve watching all people at all times...

"Royston is to become Britain’s first ‘ring of steel’ town as hidden cameras watch all routes, police have revealed.

Hidden Automatic Number Plate Recognition (ANPR) cameras will be installed on every road in and out of the town by next month.

The cameras, which record the number plate details of every vehicle, will be used to “make Royston the safest town in Hertfordshire”, say town bosses.

The cameras, already in use elsewhere in the country, will store the vehicle registration details of anyone who drives through the town on a database in London for up to five years.

Geraint Burnell, town centre manager and leader of Royston First, said: “It will make us the safest town in Hertfordshire and you won’t be able to drive in or out of the town without being clocked.

“We will be the only town in Britain that will have ANPR on every approach to the town.”"

Royston News | Latest News & Events In Royston, Cambridgeshire | Royston Evening News | Hidden cameras on all routes in

Since someone else seems to have resurrected this old thread , and I was reading it out of curiosity, I’ll add the comment that the new GDPR legislation may have some impact on the proliferation of CCTV in this country since it is no longer legal to hold personal data on people without their express permission .