Weight

[MBManInKen]

i wasnt talking about safety, you said heavier cars were more planted on the road which is not true as i mentioned

Actually, someone else said that... But safety provisions are important contributors to the added weight of modern cars.

Heavier cars do have some benefits in how they feel and behave on the roads, and indeed in accidents (crunching a heavier car absorbs more of the energy than crumbling a lighter car). Just look up some of the YouTube videos on crashes between an s-class and a smart or something similar . By the way, I find that one of the more insidious aspects of how NCAP (an otherwise useful programme) categories work - joe public thinks that a small car that scores 5 stars is safer than a big one that scores 4 stars. I'd see some value in actually publishing absolute safety statistics and comparisons. And some of the safest flagship cars, including the s-class, don't even appear at all presumably because they are not sold in enough numbers.

 

[Robbie T]

I'm told one of the heavier items in the vehicle are the seats that weigh over 60kg each. It seems customers want ultimate luxury as well as ultimate performance in the SLR, which in my opinion makes it a more a GT than pure sports car.

How does this compare to a "normal" seat i wonder. I find it hard to believe the seats are heavy seeing as they are carbon fibre framed

The SLR is a GT car it's always been regarded as such

 

[MBManInKen]

obviolsy the rear window blind is essential to driving and must be easily operated when in motion. lol

I use the rear window blind a lot to stop me being blinded by a low sun for example. Being able to put it up and down at the press of a button while on the move (including when I'm driving on motorways where I can't just pull over and do something) does help me considerably and so it's an option that to me is an essential box to tick.

Operating various parts of the car via linguatronic is another feature that has direct safety impact as there is no need to fiddle around with switches and take the eye of the road, rather I just speak the command and linguatronic does the rest. There is quite a bit of evidence around how distracting it is to select another radio station or CD track and linguatronic makes that a lot less dangerous.

As I said, each to their own, but you'll find that many of these functions serve a good purpose for many of us, and in many cases are driven by safety aspects.

 

[wemorgan]

How does this compare to a "normal" seat i wonder. I find it hard to believe the seats are heavy seeing as they are carbon fibre framed

Work in the automotive industry and you'll amazed by the mass break-down of vehicles. Millions are spent saving weight from the body shell only for a dozen speakers to be scattered around the interior at the cost of kilos, as this is what the customer wants.

 

[Dryce]

This makes them not as good to drive and less fuel efficient.

The extra weight also makes them a bit quieter and more comfortable.

 

[Ade B]

The extra weight also makes them a bit quieter and more comfortable.

Indeed, I had a 205 gti which whilst light and fun, was neither quiet nor comfortable..

Ade

 

[wemorgan]

The extra weight also makes them a bit quieter and more comfortable.

It's slightly counter intuitive. With all other things being equal a lower mass vehicle will have a higher natural frequency than the higher mass vehicle, so therefore be quieter. Although what the customer hears is also due to the quality of door fitment and the seals which have all improved over the years.

 

[Robbie T]

Work in the automotive industry and you'll amazed by the mass break-down of vehicles. Millions are spent saving weight from the body shell only for a dozen speakers to be scattered around the interior at the cost of kilos, as this is what the customer wants.

I can see exactly where all the weight comes from in the SLR, i was just wondering what a normal seat weighs roughly.

 

[kth286]

Work in the automotive industry and you'll amazed by the mass break-down of vehicles. Millions are spent saving weight from the body shell only for a dozen speakers to be scattered around the interior at the cost of kilos, as this is what the customer wants.

I wish your industry would stop quoting that, as it it is not the truth.

Jo/Joe public does not know in advance what he wants in a car, as he is not generally in a position to understand what is technically feasable.

Your statement suggests that the public are bombarding you with requests for certain features in cars when they are clearly not.

Be honest and say what is really happening.

IT IS ALL ABOUT MARKETING ADVANTAGE, OVER YOU COMPETITORS.

Your marketing people are constantly thinking of features to put in the car to look more attractive to the punter, THAT IS ALL IT IS ABOUT.

BE honest about it.

 

[wemorgan]

I can see exactly where all the weight comes from in the SLR, i was just wondering what a normal seat weighs roughly.

I wasn't avoiding your original question, I just didn't have the answer on me yesterday. Now I'm back at work I see that a basic manual seat in a mid size car weighs 20-30kg.

 

[Mr E]

I wish your industry would stop quoting that, as it it is not the truth.

Jo/Joe public does not know in advance what he wants in a car, as he is not generally in a position to understand what is technically feasable.

Your statement suggests that the public are bombarding you with requests for certain features in cars when they are clearly not.

Be honest and say what is really happening.

IT IS ALL ABOUT MARKETING ADVANTAGE, OVER YOU COMPETITORS.

Your marketing people are constantly thinking of features to put in the car to look more attractive to the punter, THAT IS ALL IT IS ABOUT.

BE honest about it.

As an independent in the automotive industry, I can say with hand on heart that most of the above is complete tosh.

OEMs spend huge amounts of money finding out what customers want in their vehicles. It is true that there is some marketing leverage in being the first to do something, but often it's driven by an underlying market requirement.

The area where this probably doesn't hold as true is with flagship models which are often seen as the leading-edge technology platform for a lot of manufacturers. However, even here, the cost of developing new technology that is a safe enough to install in a passenger vehicle is too much to be dropped in on the whim of a marketing exec.

Many of the advances that are seen as flash and unnecessary are actually built of technology platform that address more serious problems for the industry. For example, the S class instrument display is now screen-based as opposed to individual instruments. It allows for flash things like the night vision stuff and so on, but the technology allows for clearer information to be displayed and changed as required.

You also have to take into account that a vehicle is rarely pitched into one market. When the base product is out together, some things are vital for large markets and therefore, although not important for the UK, are important elsewhere (cupholders, a personal dislike, is a prime example).

 

[wemorgan]

I wish your industry would stop quoting that, as it it is not the truth.

Jo/Joe public does not know in advance what he wants in a car, as he is not generally in a position to understand what is technically feasable.

Your statement suggests that the public are bombarding you with requests for certain features in cars when they are clearly not.

Be honest and say what is really happening.

IT IS ALL ABOUT MARKETING ADVANTAGE, OVER YOU COMPETITORS.

Your marketing people are constantly thinking of features to put in the car to look more attractive to the punter, THAT IS ALL IT IS ABOUT.

BE honest about it.

I'm not sure what your agenda is and I'm sorry I seemed to have rubbed you up the wrong way, it wasn't my intention.

I'm sure there are technologies in vehicles that purely serve as a unique selling point, but I'm convinced that NVH (Noise, Vibration & Harshness) is not one of them. I would find it hard to imagine explaining to a potential customer how the class leading mode separation ensures that the 2nd torsion mode and 1st bending mode are not aligned. Whereas if customers take an E-class for a test ride and complained how at 60mph they heard this constant irritating noise, that they would seriously consider not buying it. NVH is one of the more geeky sides of vehicle development that is difficult to wrap up in a customer friendly manner and in my honest opinion is more about true engineering development rather than marketing advantage.

You're certainly free to disagree, but please don't go away thinking I'm not being honest due to some agenda you think I have, as that is not the case.

 

[Dryce]

As an independent in the automotive industry, I can say with hand on heart that most of the above is complete tosh.

OEMs spend huge amounts of money finding out what customers want in their vehicles. It is true that there is some marketing leverage in being the first to do something, but often it's driven by an underlying market requirement.

I would reckon that a large % of the effort in finding out what customers want is wasted. The Ford Scorpio and the quartic steering wheel stand as monumments to the fickleness of marketing. Well how about SBC on the E. Dropped and most of the market didn't notice it was there in the first place let alone that it is now dearly departed.

It's incredibly difficult to measure relative value. Customer wants a heated windscreen and cupholders - but what if we can give him/her just one of these features - which is more important in making the initial sale? What if the choice was between ESP or leather seats on a mid to high end model?

And then listen on this forum about the features in a car that are never used or always used, which are significant or insignificant? And these may not be the same ones that they would pick or discard if there were not existing owners but were looking through a brochure or sitting in the car in the showroom.

Practicality counts for nothing when the market booms and people have money to make choices. The BMW Mini and the majority of 4wd vehicles are testament to that. In that sense the car industry is more like the fashion industry but with much longer lead times and inertia.

 

[Mr E]

Interesting examples given by Dryce...although I would say that these are stylistic as opposed to what is loaded into a care in terms of features that add weight.

Scorpio - hideously ugly car but, from the people that I know who had one, essentially good at what it was. Problem was, no one wanted to been seen dead in one. Couple that with a market shift to more "aspirational" brands (read "German") and the market for exec class Fords disappeared. Same reason the Omega went a few years back too.

Quartic steering wheel - went the same way as vinyl roofs and go-fast strips. So yes, fickle marketing.

SBC - a technological move forward. Now replaced by a different technology that's cheaper, more reliable and does the same. It so happens that the route employed sometimes ends up a blind alley - at least MB had the sense to do the change rather than hang on to something that wasn't so good all round.


I spent 2 years involved in the multi-channel launch co-ordination for a major european manufacturer. You would not believe the amount of info they have about their buyers in individual markets that enables them to make choices such as cup-holders vs heated windscreen. There are two routes that OEMs take - either provided a hierarchy of specifications with minimal options, or small numbers of "base" specs with large option lists. Sometimes this is dictated by production practice and line capability, sometimes by the desire of the target market.

I would wholeheartedly agree that certain segments of the industry are driven by fashion and image. Again, usually driven by a market "need". But to say that OEMs dream this stuff up is wrong. I've sat in enough meetings where marketing guys have had a new hole ripped because the data and numbers does not stack up to know that no manufacturer would say "Oooh, that looks nice, let's put it in" without knowing there is a market for it.

 

[Robbie T]

I wasn't avoiding your original question, I just didn't have the answer on me yesterday. Now I'm back at work I see that a basic manual seat in a mid size car weighs 20-30kg.

That's ok the question wasn't aimed at you directly

An SLR seat weighs around 15kg's btw

 

[popuptoaster]

Mmmm, 24v scorpio was a brilliant car but no one bought them as said above mostly due to the Ford badge, probably the best sub 3 litre engine of its day, the race version was certainly the most powerfull N/A sub 3 litre up till then. My dad still has his 2.3 Ultima estate and its still feels like new and as comfy as any merc i've ridden in despite its lack of ultimate oomph.

I used the cossie granny 24v in my Cortina, basically stuck it in a car thats over 500kg lighter and boy did it shift, embarressed plenty of much more powerfull cars, weight is the enemy, my mate builds race cars for a living and he says every 10kg you save is the equivalant of adding in 1 extra horsepower.

 

[Ade B]

I don't think anyone would dispute that weight is to be trimmed off race cars. I'm not sure I'd like to strip all the sound proofing, rear seats etc. from my CE though - might improve its performance round a track, but would be a lousy place to be on the M1..

The original post was a comparison between the current carbon fibre, F1 technology SLR and a 20+ year old design for an executive saloon derivative.. I was just surprised at the difference in weight.


Ade

 

[Uberwagon]

Cars need to have a good balance, the 205 GTI had it, big engined barges have it etc. Weight is no bad thing.

Dave!

 

[wemorgan]

That's ok the question wasn't aimed at you directly

An SLR seat weighs around 15kg's btw

Sounds like you access to the Bill of Materials. Are you able to shed light on any other part masses, to answer the question on how the carbon fibre SLR weighs roughly 1800kg?

 

[wemorgan]

The original post was a comparison between the current carbon fibre, F1 technology SLR and a 20+ year old design for an executive saloon derivative.. I was just surprised at the difference in weight.

The transfer of F1 carbon fibre technology to a road vehicle that passes FMVSS legislation can't have been an easy one. I've read the MIRA report, as has been previously been posted on this forum. Without masses and performance results it's hard to quantify whether the carbon fibre body is any better than an equivalent steel or aluminium one.