Where do you draw the line on repair costs ?

[LTD]

An interesting point of discussion today at the £4.99 Curry Extravaganza that disguised itself as a Scottish GTG.

We often hear people say that a car would cost "more than it's worth to repair".

Now, many of us own very nice, older cars that have not got a huge 'book value' if the car was to be sold or traded. These will invariably need some TLC at some point. After all, they are wearing machines and subject to some pretty harsh conditions and stresses.

My W220 is sick at the moment and might need a new Airmatic pump, valve block etc. I consider this as a necessary evil of owning air suspension and akin to the problems that some W211 owners experience with their springs. A cost we know will probably hit us at some point but will result in new parts being fitted so the longevity factor is adopted and applied.

So I spend a few hundred pounds fixing it and all is well and good in the world again. I have a £75k (new price) car that makes me smile. For me, this is but a niggle. For some it's a disaster and for many a reason to have it sorted and sold

Del320 had his car resprayed and the result is a car that is probably worth a handful of thousands of pounds in the real world but looks a million dollars and is still a £50k machine in reality - albeit with a few miles and years of wisdom under it's bonnet.

Where do you draw the line ?

 

[Charles Morgan]

If the car is sound and the repair will extend its life materially, and I like it, I'll go ahead if the sum isn't an arm and a leg. If it's truly at its end, so be it.

I admire what Del320 has done with his car, he is an example to us all.

 

[davethemus]

i would fix it until i got the itch. there reaches a point when you, fall out of love with your car, i think. after that i always seem to for excuses to get rid of it, up until that point though money isn't an issue.

 

[trapperjohn]

The heart rules the wallet for a certain amount of time. Then if too many things go wrong on the bounce its bye bye time.

I'm with Charles and Dave here. Money spent to prolong its life and I like the car. Money well spent. Start to rack up issues and its chop time.

 

[312 Sprinter]

I think the value/repair cost thing is an irrelevance. The real value of the car lies in the job that it does. I'd happily spend several thousand pounds on a car with a low book value. On the other hand if the money I spend would buy me something better than the end product then I'd kill it.

A friend of mine is an architect, he drives an immaculate Volvo 940 estate which has 16" deep rim alloys, factory lowering kit, increased boost. It is a very competent bit of kit. He also has a severely hopped up Fiat Cinqecento. The Fiat has a Punto engine, Uno turbo brakes, bigger wheels, Ferrari Testarossa steering wheel, bigger exhaust, immaculate paint, Abarth body kit, de boot handled. It cost considerably more to put together than it would sell for.

He makes the point that for a lot of his clients if he turns up in something like an M5 or an AMG Mercedes he's too expensive, drive an old Mondeo or Peugeot and you're boring and incompetent. The cars he drives defy easy pigeon holing.

 

[MOCAŠ]

I've always admired the maxim "maintained regardless of cost", and that's the approach I take. If something needs doing, it gets done. As I tend to keep my cars for quite a long time (my record so far is 25 years, and counting) I have in some cases found myself spending more on servicing and repairs than the car cost in the first place (never mind its residual value), but the way I view it is that when one of my cars does eventually find a new owner, I would want them to receive it in as good a condition as I did.

 

[A140driver]

Luckily, so far, this decision hasn't had to be taken with the A-class. It gets whatever it needs, whenever it needs it. However, with my Rover 2000, I faced this very decision a few months back. Basically, it blew a head gasket, but on further inspection, this turned out to be an awful lot more serious than first thought, thus requiring a full top-end engine rebuild, which was not going to be cheap, along with new sideplates, recored radiator, and some other jobs. The car now runs perfectly in that regard.
What is really annoying me with it at the moment, is that I had a stainless steel exhaust made for the car locally, which I asked specifically to be made entirely to original spec, and so that it would be as quiet as it possibly could be. The day it was fitted, on the way home I realised that it was leaking, so took it back the next day, and they saw fit to rectify the problem, I discovered shortly after, with gun gum exhaust sealer!!!!!
On the way home from that I realised that the exhaust was rattling badly on the car, so turned round and went back to the place, where they said I was to phone and let them know a time that suited to get it sorted out. On the way home that night, the car blew its head gasket as previously mentioned.
Since then it has deteriorated to a horrific extent, catches on several parts of the car, is rusting, sounds dreadful, and is generally an absolutely awful exhaust. As a result, the other day, I decided to take the car back to the establishment who made it, and asked for a refund, or at least a partial refund with a small deduction for his costs, both of which were rejected, with the idiot telling me that I'd had more than my money's worth.
I then showed him the faults at great length, which he offered to rectify, but given the standard of his work, I refuse to let him touch the car again, and realise I will never see the large sum of money paid out for the exhaust again. So once again, I need to make a decision as regards a large bill. I know I'll need to make a similar decision about a respray soon too. The car will never be worth a great deal, P6s just aren't that valuable, and although the car has not really been right in all the time it's been with me, I now know it's so close to being the way it should be, that it would be a pity for all of my work and money invested to go down the drain.
In the time I've had it, I've spent about 2.5-3 times what I spent on the car itself, on repairs alone, and I really do wonder why I bothered sometimes.
If it does develop any large problems again in the near future, then its time with me could be limited. Being a classic car, I am prepared to have to put up with occasional bills, and regular maintenance, but this car has cost a fortune so far.

 

[davethemus]

A friend of mine is an architect, he drives an immaculate Volvo 940 estate which has 16" deep rim alloys, factory lowering kit, increased boost. It is a very competent bit of kit. He also has a severely hopped up Fiat Cinqecento. The Fiat has a Punto engine, Uno turbo brakes, bigger wheels, Ferrari Testarossa steering wheel, bigger exhaust, immaculate paint, Abarth body kit, de boot handled.

you need to get some pictures of that up here.

 

[del320]

I think this is the crux of the argument: If the car is in any way "special" - be it a recognised classic or good example of a quality car, then, as we discussed, if one has the wherewithal, it is worth throwing money at it.

SilverSaloon admitted that his Vitesse did little for him whilst the rest of us reckoned it was in such good nick that it would be an excellent basis for a real long term project.

And I suppose it all boils down to how you really feel for an inanimate pile of metal. If all you are looking for is reliable transport, then you're not going to throw good money at a lemon - which is how a rather disillusioned *** presently feels.

For me, the undiminished pleasure the coupe gives me after ten years ownership, means that, excepting a catastrophic total loss, I could well still be running it when I am 70.

For run-of-the-mill motors it is probably wise to get rid around the 60 - 80k mark before serious expenditure is required.

 

[WigeonIncognito]

I use the 'maintained regardless of cost' maxim.

I only own a car if I like it, if I like it I'll spend what I need to spend to keep it 100%. The difference might be that I don't just keep a car running, I'm proactive and preventative about maintenance. If I think something might need doing due to age/mileage I'll do it even if there are no signs of failure as if a car of mine was to fail due to my negligence I'd feel thoroughly ashamed. If my car isn't in better than showroom condition I'm doing something wrong.

Doing things that way has still always been much cheaper than paying the depreciation on something like a Focus so I'm happy that I get a fantastic motoring experience at a good price.

 

[NOMONEYBUTAMERC]

I expect many of us at some stage have thrown good money after bad , particularly on older cars. Many years ago I had a MK1 GT Cortina. This was,at the time around 10 years old. It was an absolute jinx , and anything that could go wrong , did . One evening , having spent money on an engine rebuild , I could not get it to start. Having spent the previous three evenings trying to sort it out , I finally lost patience with it , picked up a hammer , smashed the headlights , then threw it at the windscreen .Luckily ,the screen remained intact . After hearing all the commotion , my father walked into the garage ,assessed the situation , and calmly said " you still have a car that wont run , and now you also have to buy new headlights .If you have an old car , you must expect to spend time and money looking after it. All part of the joys of motoring". He was , of course , correct.
I have since owned many , many cars , and mostly moved them on without spending too much time/money. But there have been a few which , whilst common sense said "get rid " I kept , and overspent on.

 

[312 Sprinter]

you need to get some pictures of that up here.

OK, Going a bit off topic. I built both of these so their look is my fault

The Fiat is hilarious, the suspension is all poly bushed, it has a carbon fibre air box. It is what 17 year olds would build if they had the budget or experience....

 

[grober]

Its a very subjective thing car this ownership business. First the major loss associated with car ownership is depreciation. At some point in a car's life its value stabilises-- its depreciation curve flattens out and its value then begins to reflect more directly the money spent on maintaining it. This is a compelling economic argument. Major mechanical components are generally very long lived, minor components are easily replaced so inevitably its structural body condition that finally dictates its useful life.

For the cars of today however the spectre of difficult to source/manufacturer specific --electronic assemblies looms large in the future . With today's digital electronics we may be entering the era of outdated / unobtainable software as well as hardware. On a slightly different tack --- What's the projected life of today's car safety systems---- all these airbags in the seats behind the trim etc What's the shelf life of the chemical propellants needed to inflate them and the electronics to fire them ? What about future emissions/safety legislation? Are the high polluters going to be banned altogether or priced off the road? At present pre 2001 cars have been given a " bus pass" on emissions and safety- sadly I don't see that continuing indefinitely and I say that as 1996 car owner. Having said all that I think that post #3 by Davethemus puts the finger on it --its when you stop liking the car and that's usually when its stranded you once too often by the side of the road. This may take longer for folks that have multiple vehicles to fall back on to keep mobile, but if its your sole means of transport one major breakdown may be one too many.

 

[219]

Luckily, so far, this decision hasn't had to be taken with the A-class. It gets whatever it needs, whenever it needs it. However, with my Rover 2000, I faced this very decision a few months back. Basically, it blew a head gasket, but on further inspection, this turned out to be an awful lot more serious than first thought, thus requiring a full top-end engine rebuild, which was not going to be cheap, along with new sideplates, recored radiator, and some other jobs. The car now runs perfectly in that regard.
What is really annoying me with it at the moment, is that I had a stainless steel exhaust made for the car locally, which I asked specifically to be made entirely to original spec, and so that it would be as quiet as it possibly could be. The day it was fitted, on the way home I realised that it was leaking, so took it back the next day, and they saw fit to rectify the problem, I discovered shortly after, with gun gum exhaust sealer!!!!!
On the way home from that I realised that the exhaust was rattling badly on the car, so turned round and went back to the place, where they said I was to phone and let them know a time that suited to get it sorted out. On the way home that night, the car blew its head gasket as previously mentioned.
Since then it has deteriorated to a horrific extent, catches on several parts of the car, is rusting, sounds dreadful, and is generally an absolutely awful exhaust. As a result, the other day, I decided to take the car back to the establishment who made it, and asked for a refund, or at least a partial refund with a small deduction for his costs, both of which were rejected, with the idiot telling me that I'd had more than my money's worth.
I then showed him the faults at great length, which he offered to rectify, but given the standard of his work, I refuse to let him touch the car again, and realise I will never see the large sum of money paid out for the exhaust again. So once again, I need to make a decision as regards a large bill. I know I'll need to make a similar decision about a respray soon too. The car will never be worth a great deal, P6s just aren't that valuable, and although the car has not really been right in all the time it's been with me, I now know it's so close to being the way it should be, that it would be a pity for all of my work and money invested to go down the drain.
In the time I've had it, I've spent about 2.5-3 times what I spent on the car itself, on repairs alone, and I really do wonder why I bothered sometimes.
If it does develop any large problems again in the near future, then its time with me could be limited. Being a classic car, I am prepared to have to put up with occasional bills, and regular maintenance, but this car has cost a fortune so far.

I really feel for you re the exhaust - most people in this line of work are just 'cowboys' who know little about gas flow and care even less - I got 'burned' by such a firm some years ago and ended up with a car which just never ran right again .

If you look for my thread 'an exhausting day' , you'll see the report on the system I had made up by P D Gough in Nottingham . This involved a 300 mile trip for me but well worth it because I got exactly what I wanted - which was a replica of the original system in stainless steel . This company came highly recommended through the MBOC and I know someone who had a system fitted to a W108 some twenty years ago and still good as new .

This is a good example of the topic under discussion - a W126 can be bought for a few hundred these days but still cost the same to run and maintain as they did when new . I didn't buy mine because I wanted a cheap car ( the low buying price was a plus point , though ) , I bought it in preference to a later car which would be beyond me to look after myself and which I would not be attracted to anyway .

In the couple of years with my current car I have now spent more on maintenance than I did buying it , between routine stuff like fluids , filters , discs , pads , tyres , the exhaust system , two new springs and one repair to the ABS which I put it into an Indy for diagnosis of . I've also fitted a towbar , replaced the interior and retrofitted a few options with parts sourced from breakers . This year I plan to retrofit SLS as I've just sourced the rest of the system to go with the two struts I got last year . At some point I'll get the air-con fixed and address the few paintwork issues on the car .

I don't for one minute imagine that any of the above would ever see a return were I to sell the car , but I have a car I am happy to keep indefinitely so just want to maintain it in good condition without going OTT as it will never be a 'show car'.

At some point I will get round to restoring my Ponton , but probably not untilI retire ; hopefully , I will find time this year to get the 280SE on the road and do what is needed to keep it running too .

 

[Ade B]

Never been quite convinced by the flash car putting clients off line. If I could afford it I'd have one - to match my clients, contractors & fellow consultants

My CE cost a well documented fortune in essential & 'preventative' maintenance & repair. Whilst I thoroughly enjoyed owning it, I don't regret moving it on as when ever one thing was fixed something else failed. (not that it's replacement has been a model of cost efficient motoring....)

It is no cooincidence that since it's departure, my flat refurbishment is now more or less complete & I spend a lot less time cleaning and sticking fuel in cars.

I've come to the conclusion that unless you go for all out bangernomics, all cars cost too much to run one way or another..

Ade

 

[tagnut]

Where do you draw the line at repair costs

A very interesting question for me too currently. In the last year in addition to what I would consider serviceable items I have had to replace the following:

Front Springs
Rears Springs
Track Rod Ends
Radiator
Thermostat
Alternator
Battery

I also have the following outstanding work to do:

2 x Keyless Go door handles to replace
2 x roof trims rusting (replace or repair)
Alloy wheel refurb (looking quite sorry for themselves at the moment)
CD changer not working (not ejecting CD's)
Rear Bumper repair (car park oik)
Resolve low MPG issue (MAF or EGR probably)

On top of a number of serviceable items such as brake discs and pads, ATF change, worn suspension bushes, wheel bearings, regular servicing costs and additional work related to a pheasant strike (bumper trim and parking sensor) it's all getting rather expensive. I feel fortunate that I have a decent Indy locally who does good quality work at a good price but I am beginning to wonder how much more I'm going to have to shell out. No way I could have afforded dealer prices for all of this!

As much as I do like my car more than any other I have owned, if any other major work (SBC pump? Turbo?) is required in the next 6 months or so I may just have to cut my losses

 

[A140driver]

I really feel for you re the exhaust - most people in this line of work are just 'cowboys' who know little about gas flow and care even less - I got 'burned' by such a firm some years ago and ended up with a car which just never ran right again .

If you look for my thread 'an exhausting day' , you'll see the report on the system I had made up by P D Gough in Nottingham . This involved a 300 mile trip for me but well worth it because I got exactly what I wanted - which was a replica of the original system in stainless steel . This company came highly recommended through the MBOC and I know someone who had a system fitted to a W108 some twenty years ago and still good as new .

This is a good example of the topic under discussion - a W126 can be bought for a few hundred these days but still cost the same to run and maintain as they did when new . I didn't buy mine because I wanted a cheap car ( the low buying price was a plus point , though ) , I bought it in preference to a later car which would be beyond me to look after myself and which I would not be attracted to anyway .

In the couple of years with my current car I have now spent more on maintenance than I did buying it , between routine stuff like fluids , filters , discs , pads , tyres , the exhaust system , two new springs and one repair to the ABS which I put it into an Indy for diagnosis of . I've also fitted a towbar , replaced the interior and retrofitted a few options with parts sourced from breakers . This year I plan to retrofit SLS as I've just sourced the rest of the system to go with the two struts I got last year . At some point I'll get the air-con fixed and address the few paintwork issues on the car .

I don't for one minute imagine that any of the above would ever see a return were I to sell the car , but I have a car I am happy to keep indefinitely so just want to maintain it in good condition without going OTT as it will never be a 'show car'.

At some point I will get round to restoring my Ponton , but probably not untilI retire ; hopefully , I will find time this year to get the 280SE on the road and do what is needed to keep it running too .

Thanks a lot Pontoneer, I've spoken to various classic owners recently about exhausts, and PD Gough get a wonderful reputation, so I shall phone them during the week for an approximate quote. The other place that I am considering is Gates Tyres in Carlisle, as they too appear to have an excellent reputation.
Do you know if PD Gough can make systems and send them to you, or do you need to take the car to them for a day?
Thanks

 

[kth286]

The cars he drives defy easy pigeon holing.

That is the key - it marks you out as something of an individual with free-thinking approach to life.

A real individual would be driving an immaculate 123 coupe !

 

[Ian B Walker]

I think it all comes down to how much you love your car. For instance, if I owned say a C Class as an example (202 without any disrespect for C Class owners) I would probably weigh it in if it was going to cost me more than a couple of hundred a year. On the other hand, my 124 300-24 gets anything it needs and will do until it either falls to bits (unlikely) or written off in an accident. As you will gather I love it to bits. There is just something about the old fashioned engine sound, the way it sits on the road, the predictability when cornering at a pace and the fabled built quality.

 

[219]

Do you know if PD Gough can make systems and send them to you, or do you need to take the car to them for a day?
Thanks

Yes , the normal deal is the price they quote includes shipping to you . As an option , you can go in and have it fitted for the same price .

As mine was a fairly large and complex system , I opted to drive down and have it fitted , rather than run into difficulties trying to do it myself . On inspecting the completed job , I think I'd have had a hard time with the quad down pipes .

Just in case you didn't find it , here's the link to my thread with pictures of my fitted system .

http://www.mbclub.co.uk/forums/general-discussion/96547-exhausting-day.html

They have patterns for all popular cars back to the 1950's and can fabricate anything as long as they have a sample to copy .