Covid-19 Discussion

[Deleted member 149005]

Try answering the question.

Happy to - i see you are selective in which questions you choose to answer (the minority) and ignore (the majority)

Let’s agree to differ and move on shall we?

 

[whitenemesis]

Now, was it Mark Twain or Mark Carlin that said “Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.”?

 

[Deleted member 149005]

Nice one Greta.

Argh - cheap insults now. Usually the prerogative of the intellectually weak who have lost the debate.

 

[Deleted member 149005]

Now, was it Mark Twain or Mark Carlin that said “Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.”?

I fear i have been beaten

 

[ChipChop]

You do what you like. I have put up with being called a conspiracy theorist throughout this thread and you have the cheek to say i throw cheap insults.

You also seem ashamed of Britains past for some reason. Why is that?

 

[markjay]

Now, was it Mark Twain or Mark Carlin that said “Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.”?

I prefer this one:

“A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.” ― Winston S. Churchill.

 

[Deleted member 149005]

You do what you like. I have put up with being called a conspiracy theorist throughout this thread and you have the cheek to say i throw cheap insults.

You also seem ashamed of Britains past for some reason. Why is that?

I merely posited a fact - you choose how to interpret it.

Carry on with your theories...i’ll stick to evidence based debate.

 

[ChipChop]

I prefer this one:

“A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.” ― Winston S. Churchill.

Very wise.

 

[markjay]

Very wise.

Yes he was.

 

[rayaans]

my two pence on the subject.

As a medical professional, I do believe there has been a lot of scaremongering going on in the media. Now, coronavirus is very real, I believe I have had it myself, albeit at a time when testing wasn't widely available even to NHS staff. A significant number of my my team have been diagnosed positive, with mild symptoms of headache and fever with full recovery within 7 days. On top of that, an even greater number were diagnosed negative with the symptoms as well, after all, the throat/nose swab actually isn't very reliable - only about 30-40% and depedent on the person swabbing, most don't go anywhere near as far up the nose as they should be doing so I suspect its probably made its way through a large proportion of the population anyway

On the number of cases/deaths I believe my trust discharged 2/3rd of everyone who tested positive, some are still inpatients and others have passed away sadly. The issue with the media is they are focusing on each and every death with poor understanding of how death as a subject actually works. Not everyone can be saved, some people will have died with coronavirus, not because of it. Whilst very tragic, a significant proportion of these people passed away with a superimposed bacterial infection, quite high risk especially on ventilators, Ive seen many who actually tested negative the second time around but then were diagnosed with legionella pneumonia. Some had pulmonary embolisms.

I believe out of 36000 people who sadly died of COVID-19, 400-500 had no underlying health conditions. This generally equates to the the same number of people who pass away from drowning each year in the UK. Additionally, what we have seen over the past few weeks is an increase in lockdown related admissions - attempted suicides, overdoses etc. It appears to be quite clear that the impact of lockdown on health has clearly overtaken COVID-19 when looking at my trust in isolation. Currently there are roughly 3500 new cases daily in the UK, 1500-2000 of them are actually key workers suggesting that the most dangerous places at the moment are hospitals, and next probably supermarkets.

I don't think a vaccine is due out anytime soon. China is currently at the forefront of finding this vaccine, I believe Oxford University are also reasonably confident but I suspect it'd be another 6-12 months atleast. A lockdown is not sustainable for this period of time, neither is the wellbeing of children so I am not surprised that the lockdown is being eased gradually. The risk of a second peak in my mind is around 90%, probably around the winter months, and I dont think the UK can economically go into a second lockdown, but I guess we'll just have to see.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

You do what you like. I have put up with being called a conspiracy theorist throughout this thread and you have the cheek to say i throw cheap insults.

You also seem ashamed of Britains past for some reason. Why is that?

Genuine question: What is the opposite term for “conspiracy theory”? By that I mean non-believers use the term “conspiracy theory”, what do believers call the same thing?

 

[ChipChop]

my two pence on the subject.

As a medical professional, I do believe there has been a lot of scaremongering going on in the media. Now, coronavirus is very real, I believe I have had it myself, albeit at a time when testing wasn't widely available even to NHS staff. A significant number of my my team have been diagnosed positive, with mild symptoms of headache and fever with full recovery within 7 days. On top of that, an even greater number were diagnosed negative with the symptoms as well, after all, the throat/nose swab actually isn't very reliable - only about 30-40% and depedent on the person swabbing, most don't go anywhere near as far up the nose as they should be doing so I suspect its probably made its way through a large proportion of the population anyway

On the number of cases/deaths I believe my trust discharged 2/3rd of everyone who tested positive, some are still inpatients and others have passed away sadly. The issue with the media is they are focusing on each and every death with poor understanding of how death as a subject actually works. Not everyone can be saved, some people will have died with coronavirus, not because of it. Whilst very tragic, a significant proportion of these people passed away with a superimposed bacterial infection, quite high risk especially on ventilators, Ive seen many who actually tested negative the second time around but then were diagnosed with legionella pneumonia. Some had pulmonary embolisms.

I believe out of 36000 people who sadly died of COVID-19, 400-500 had no underlying health conditions. This generally equates to the the same number of people who pass away from drowning each year in the UK. Additionally, what we have seen over the past few weeks is an increase in lockdown related admissions - attempted suicides, overdoses etc. It appears to be quite clear that the impact of lockdown on health has clearly overtaken COVID-19 when looking at my trust in isolation. Currently there are roughly 3500 new cases daily in the UK, 1500-2000 of them are actually key workers suggesting that the most dangerous places at the moment are hospitals, and next probably supermarkets.

I don't think a vaccine is due out anytime soon. China is currently at the forefront of finding this vaccine, I believe Oxford University are also reasonably confident but I suspect it'd be another 6-12 months atleast. A lockdown is not sustainable for this period of time, neither is the wellbeing of children so I am not surprised that the lockdown is being eased gradually. The risk of a second peak in my mind is around 90%, probably around the winter months, and I dont think the UK can economically go into a second lockdown, but I guess we'll just have to see.

Thank you for your honest analysis of the situation.

 

[ChipChop]

Genuine question: What is the opposite term for “conspiracy theory”? By that I mean non-believers use the term “conspiracy theory”, what do believers call the same thing?

Just a theory i suppose.

Take the accepted narrative around building 7 on 911, Not hit by a plane, not damaged to the point of structural failure but all of a sudden fell at free fall speed meaning no resistance in the steel structure. Impossible without some form of demolition technique being employed. To accept the mainstream account is just not logical.

 

[Swotty]

Genuine question: What is the opposite term for “conspiracy theory”? By that I mean non-believers use the term “conspiracy theory”, what do believers call the same thing?

Complacent?

 

[Bellow]

There's a widespread belief that the world is overpopulated and that the trend is increasing but all efforts to curb it have failed. Where the problem is most acute is in the third world where large families are an insurance policy for care in old age (where no supporting social services exist) and the families are large to ensure some survive within a context of high child mortality. That high child mortality is not an answer to overpopulation and is explicitly obvious by the fact that the trend continues and enough survive (possibly more than necessary) to fulfil the aforementioned need for care in old age. Those surviving children then repeat the process.

Only when child mortality reduces will the tendency to large families wane. That is the power of vaccination projects (and other projects which aim to eradicate the causes of high child mortality eg, disease, famine, drought, poverty, war, etc) to reduce population numbers to more sustainable levels. When a smaller family where all (or most) of the children survive to care for parents in their old age - then the world population will surely drop and with it the strain on resources and the first step to enjoying first world levels of health, wealth, etc has been taken.

Unlike some who believe (or appear to believe) that population numbers can only be contained by inflicting death, thankfully there are some who have a more progressive view of what is achievable and are prepared to bankroll it with their own money.
Which begs the question - for those opposed to this, what do they propose as a solution to a problem identified and agreed on by virtually every living soul on the planet?

 

[ChipChop]

There's a widespread belief that the world is overpopulated and that the trend is increasing but all efforts to curb it have failed.

Could you provide some form of proof of this please. I always was lead to believe that populations in general were ageing?

 

[Bellow]

Could you provide some form of proof of this please. I always was lead to believe that populations in general were ageing?

Try finding someone - anyone - who believes the world is underpopulated.

 

[markjay]

Genuine question: What is the opposite term for “conspiracy theory”? By that I mean non-believers use the term “conspiracy theory”, what do believers call the same thing?

Conspiracy theories aren't necessarily wrong, they are simply challenging the mainstream version of events.

The issue is not with the conspiracy theories themselves, it is with their followers, too many of whom do not understand what 'theory' means, or just chose to ignore it.

So the problem with conspiracy theories isn't in what they say per-se, but in that they are almost always a stepping-stone for use of fabricated facts, innuendo, and blatenly ignoring any facts that do not sit well with the conspiracy theory. Very few of them will tell you "I know there's no verifiable evidence yet to support this theory, but I personally believe it to be so".

The followers are both constant and relentless, nothing can change their convictions. Inevitably, where evidence to the contrary is mounting, they come-up with some of the most convoluted explanations, sticking to their guns at all cost when faced with reality.

It's this counter-sceintific methodology that the risk stems from. It threatens decades of work done by academics all around the world, trying to establish impartial, fact-based methodology as a way to find truths about the world around us.

Cynically, those who follow conspiracy theories, discredit scientific findings, or work of law enforcement agencies, academic institutes, researches, journalists, etc, by claiming that they are either part of the conspiracy, or blindly led by others.

Conspiracy theory work as a closed-circuit system - anything that disproves it is automatically classified as part of the conspiracy... and so it becomes a perpetual self-fulfilling prophecy that can not be shaken.

Which is exactly where it fails the science test - a theory is only worthwhile if there's a way of disproving it (I did a degree on this very thing albeit many many years ago), but in their followers' minds, conspiracy theories can never ever be disproved.

And before you say that I am needlessly stereotyping... I'll leave you with this thought: have you ever met someone who believes in just one conspiracy theory? It's very rare. Believing in conspiracy theories isn't fact-related, instead it's a personality trait.

Some people have the propensity for rejecting any information that comes from authoritve sources, and accept anything that doesn't.

This is why you'll find that those who believe in conspiracy theories will typically believe in several, not just one. The acid test is 9/11: when you meet someone who believes in a conspiracy theory, ask them what they make of 9/11... the answer will tell you all you need to know about the person.

 

[ChipChop]

Try finding someone - anyone - who believes the world is underpopulated.

You would need proof that this world is overpopulated such as famines etc due to insufficient food etc i would have thought not just anecdotal evidence.

 

[Bellow]

You would need proof that this world is overpopulated such as famines etc due to insufficient food etc i would have thought not just anecdotal evidence.

I can't stop you being wrong. I give up. But you still haven't won anything.