Covid-19 Discussion

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I did a shed load of work and research on fuel poverty (which is broadly defined as when you’re spending more than 10% of your income on energy) three years ago and, on paper, OAP’s are disproportionately affected but, in reality, it’s a lot smaller.

One of the biggest “real world” differences we found was how frugal OAP’s really were, irrespective of income, and we actually found that the “better-off” they were, the more frugal they tended to be - we found many who could afford their energy bills comfortably but would rather put a coat (or two!) on.

That's very interesting.

One could argue that it's actually the other way around: those who were frugal throughout their lives, were consequently "better-off" at old age.

And this is one of the issues with means testing for OAPs - it tends to penalise those who lead modest lives and lived with in their means while saving for their retirement, and favour those who spent their money while they've had it or otherwise just never learned how to manage their finances.

Obviously there's more to it, but just to point-out that means-testing for OAPs is far from being the perfect tool.

Some OAP benefits are universal, e.g. prescription fee exemption for the over 60, or Senior Railcard. I certainly think that we should see more of these.
 
That's very interesting.

One could argue that it's actually the other way around: those who were frugal throughout their lives, were consequently "better-off" at old age.
Better-off financially maybe, but some could skin and orange in their pocket with a boxing glove on!

The overwhelming thing that stuck out to me was how few OAP’s were actually struggling financially; the vast majority had (certainly compared to now) very good pensions; I remember one who’d been a dinner lady for 35 years and was now a widow and her income was (including her dead husbands pension) circa £2,500 per month with outgoings (no mortgage etc) of £800 which gave her a disposable income of £1,700 per month which is quite a tidy sum for a 72 year old lady.

I didn’t begrudge them in anyway btw, just a shame younger generations won’t also have similar results from working hard for a lot of years.
 
I did a shed load of work and research on fuel poverty (which is broadly defined as when you’re spending more than 10% of your income on energy) three years ago and, on paper, OAP’s are disproportionately affected but, in reality, it’s a lot smaller.

One of the biggest “real world” differences we found was how frugal OAP’s really were, irrespective of income, and we actually found that the “better-off” they were, the more frugal they tended to be - we found many who could afford their energy bills comfortably but would rather put a coat (or two!) on.
I do not disagree with your jist.

However the simple fact is 95% of deaths are people aged 70+ years and with 2 or more comorbidities. That means oaps with conditions.

Taking into account 11 times more people are currently dying of flu/ pneumonia than Covid -19 September 2020 i would think it would be wise for a government hell bent on saving lives at all costs to concerntrate on this group. If for no other reason than to protect NHS capacity for what they think is more urgent, Covid-19.

Hence the suggestion of addressing fuel poverty in this age group in the UK as a matter of some urgency.
 
Better-off financially maybe, but some could skin and orange in their pocket with a boxing glove on!

The overwhelming thing that stuck out to me was how few OAP’s were actually struggling financially; the vast majority had (certainly compared to now) very good pensions; I remember one who’d been a dinner lady for 35 years and was now a widow and her income was (including her dead husbands pension) circa £2,500 per month with outgoings (no mortgage etc) of £800 which gave her a disposable income of £1,700 per month which is quite a tidy sum for a 72 year old lady.

I didn’t begrudge them in anyway btw, just a shame younger generations won’t also have similar results from working hard for a lot of years.

I agree, but it's not only external circumstances that are responsible for hard-working people not building-up a proper retirement pot these days. Modern consumerism, foreign holidays, availability of consumer credit, etc and modern life styles in general are also responsible.

To an extent, our standard of living (compared to previous generations) is much higher today, but it has risen at a higher rate than our income level, and as result the current generations will have less savings and more debt in their retirement.
 
The overwhelming thing that stuck out to me was how few OAP’s were actually struggling financially; the vast majority had (certainly compared to now) very good pensions; I remember one who’d been a dinner lady for 35 years and was now a widow and her income was (including her dead husbands pension) circa £2,500 per month with outgoings (no mortgage etc) of £800 which gave her a disposable income of £1,700 per month which is quite a tidy sum for a 72 year old lady.


This is not untypical. My wife's work brought her into contact with a large number of pensioners and they all said they had never been so well off. All that own their own home and have no mortgage costs are likely to be in the well off group. They may not be everyone but the well off ones really don't need more money throwing at them when they are in reality the least affected financially by covid. It's young people with families that need more financial help.
 
It's young people with families that need more financial help.
The Chancellor has deemed the working young the "unviable". What a start in life.

I suppose they could always become covid wardens or get a delivery job for Amazon.
 
I agree, but it's not only external circumstances that are responsible for hard-working people not building-up a proper retirement pot these days. Modern consumerism, foreign holidays, availability of consumer credit, etc and modern life styles in general are also responsible.
I hear this quote a lot from the older generation but I’m afraid the 60’s and over had it great - my own father worked at IH making tractors and in 1990 was earning £30k a year which - allowing for inflation - would be £60-70k now, and those jobs and that money just doesn’t exist anymore irrespective of whether the young are buying the latest iPhone or whatever else is levelled at them.

As I say, I don’t begrudge those previous generations it, I think it’s a shame other generations won’t have those same benefits.
 
This is not untypical. My wife's work brought her into contact with a large number of pensioners and they all said they had never been so well off. All that own their own home and have no mortgage costs are likely to be in the well off group. They may not be everyone but the well off ones really don't need more money throwing at them when they are in reality the least affected financially by covid. It's young people with families that need more financial help.
This is the crux - if young working families don’t see any point in working hard and paying your taxes towards a better society; how will their elderly be paid for?
 
This is not untypical. My wife's work brought her into contact with a large number of pensioners and they all said they had never been so well off. All that own their own home and have no mortgage costs are likely to be in the well off group. They may not be everyone but the well off ones really don't need more money throwing at them when they are in reality the least affected financially by covid. It's young people with families that need more financial help.

However... should they need care, they will be asked to use their own savings and contribute towards the cost of their care. Those with no house, savings, and only a meagre pension pot, will expect the government to provide them with the care they need free of charge.
 
This is the crux - if young working families don’t see any point in working hard and paying your taxes towards a better society; how will their elderly be paid for?

Again... have you compared the spend levels of modern hard-working families, to what today's OPAs spent during their lifetime?

I would argue that one if the reasons that today's hard-working families save less, is simply because they spend more.

Ask working-class OAPs who are currently financially comfortable in their retirement, how many foreign holidays did they take every year while they were working? How much did they spend on their family's large-screen TVs, Sky subscription, iPhones, Nike trainers, etc?

I am not suggesting that there's nothing wrong with our society in terms of employment laws, job security, pensions, etc - of course there's much that can be improved.

But to suggest that future retirement poverty is only due to the above, and that people's own behaviour and spend patterns don't come into it, is either naive or ideologically-motivated (or both).
 
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Oh wow i missed it! Did we leave with a deal or on WTO terms?
How could you miss it! We are now in the transition period trying to negotiate a deal.
 
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:D

I suppose the key word here is "most" pensioners. Those that are in fuel poverty, meaning they restrict there heating use in fear of massive bills may just be the ones that are getting influenza that develops into pneumonia and end up on a hospital ward. Bearing in mind the protect the NHS mantra this should be avoided at all costs.

Far more people die of influenza/ pneumonia than Covid-19. See graph in post 3820 from ONS.

Does not take much to help them imho.
The crazy thing about winter fuel allowance is that even my 80+ year old mother gets it and she lives in Spain. She gives the allowance to charity every year but how many don't!
 
How could you miss it! We are now in the transition period trying to negotiate a deal.
Which means there is still everything to play for. A brexit in name only deal. Agreeing to a level playing field.

In the words of the pro EU luminous yellow sticker on lampost brigade "It is not a done deal".
 
The crazy thing about winter fuel allowance is that even my 80+ year old mother gets it and she lives in Spain. She gives the allowance to charity every year but how many don't!
Quite a popular thing amoungst the UK retired. More to Spain and warmer climes.

Means you do not have to spend all that money on winter heating bills in the UK. Which was my point all along.
 
I do not disagree with your jist.

However the simple fact is 95% of deaths are people aged 70+ years and with 2 or more comorbidities. That means oaps with conditions.

Taking into account 11 times more people are currently dying of flu/ pneumonia than Covid -19 September 2020 i would think it would be wise for a government hell bent on saving lives at all costs to concerntrate on this group. If for no other reason than to protect NHS capacity for what they think is more urgent, Covid-19.

Hence the suggestion of addressing fuel poverty in this age group in the UK as a matter of some urgency.

No one (other than perhaps die-hard COVID deniers) disagrees that older people are being hit disproportionately harder than younger people by COVID-19 (and, for many years now, also by Flu).

The disagreement is regarding the level of disruption to daily life that younger age groups are willing to endure in order to protect the elderly.

If we're being honest with ourselves, the proposed plans to shield the elderly also evolve very much around doing what can be done without troubling others.

But is simply telling the elderly to shied themselves while everyone else carries-on as normal, the proper solution to this dilemma?
 
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Quite a popular thing amoungst the UK retired. More to Spain and warmer climes.

Presumably the UK is no longer obliged to provide state benefits to British ex-pats who retired abroad?

I wonder how these people voted on Brexit.
 
No one (other than perhaps die-hard COVID deniers) disagrees that older people are being hit disproportionately harder than younger people by COVID-19 (and, for many years now, also by Flu).

The disagreement is regarding the level of disruption to daily life that younger age groups are willing to endure in order to protect the elderly.

If we're being honest with ourselves, the proposed plans to shield the elderly also evolve very much around doing what can be done without troubling others.

But is simply telling the elderly to shied themselves while everyone else carries-on as normal, the proper solution to this dilemma?
Yes the mortality profile of Covid-19 is akin to natural mortality. Hence those on deaths door (70+ years old and 2 or more comorbidities) are 95% of the victims.

Flu/ Influenza also effects children and pregnant women as well as the elderly so not quite the same mortality profile as Covid-19. It also effects far more people than Covid-19 and has done so since early June this year. That is nearly 4 months of higher flu/ infleunza deaths than Covid-19 deaths.

What you term as "level of disruption to daily life" and "what can be done without troubling others" with regards to society protecting the elderly is a dilemma born of society being ruled by those entrenched in political correctness. Any actions need to be proportionate to the risks involved and not taken just because a politician thinks it might make him unpopular or some think tank says this or that.
The risks 6 month into this health crisis are much clearer. Open society up.
 
Presumably the UK is no longer obliged to provide state benefits to British ex-pats who retired abroad?

I wonder how these people voted on Brexit.
I am sure the BBC would be more than willing to send a team of reporters and a camera crew to the Costa Del Sol to find out.
 
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